T Nation

Israeli Strike Kills Hamas Leader

I’m going to jump in here

[quote]Marzouk wrote:

But switch it around for a second. An American extreme group kill 3000 people in attack. Then that country invades America and bombs the shit out if its captial city killing 100’s of thousand of people over several years in search for the culprits.

[/quote]

You didn’t ‘switch it around’ properly. Did the U.S. government harbour and train the ‘American extreme group?’ Do the U.S. people overwhelmingly support the extremist group’s actions? Also, you are misrepresenting the facts. 90% of the civilian deaths in Iraq were causes by the insurgents. If we’re going to ‘switch it around’ then we need to stop playing make believe history.

No, that’s the year the modern state of Israel was founded. How is it ‘not their country?’ Whose country is it?

And how are they treated?

Yeah, foreign workers. They’re treated real well too from what I hear. It is against the law to actually practice any religion in Saudi Arabia other than Islam. What’s your point?

Who says it’s ‘no worse than what goes on in any other country?’ What are you basing that on? Is that your opinion? Isn’t it a kind of idiotic moral relativism to dismiss this stuff by suggesting that all countries are the same?

What dummy…

Ha ha. Funny guy…

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

World Public Opinion: 81% of Egyptians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country

Pew Research (2010): 77% of Egyptian Muslims favor floggings and amputation

Pew Research (2010): 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers

[quote]Marzouk wrote:

A man with a beard kills 3 people he’s a terrorist.

A white man kills 12 people in a cinema ‘He’s mentally unstable’

[/quote]

Sure, let’s ignore movements with geo-political goals. I can’t believe this tripe got a thumbs up.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Marzouk wrote:

A man with a beard kills 3 people he’s a terrorist.

A white man kills 12 people in a cinema ‘He’s mentally unstable’

[/quote]

Sure, let’s ignore movements with geo-political goals. I can’t believe this tripe got a thumbs up.
[/quote]

I think he meant to convey the prevalent prejudice against those who “look like terrorist.” Hell, the vast majority of Americans don’t even know what a Sikh is, much less their beliefs. Doesn’t matter to the uneducated mob. They are labeled by the more imbecilic of the bunch as a towel head Muslim who hates America . I don’t think anyone falls into that category on this thread. Keep in mind the man’s first language is not English as well. I know German but I sure as hell wouldn’t feel comfortable arguing complex political issues in it.

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[quote]SexMachine wrote:
You didn’t ‘switch it around’ properly. Did the U.S. government harbour and train the ‘American extreme group?’ Do the U.S. people overwhelmingly support the extremist group’s actions? Also, you are misrepresenting the facts. 90% of the civilian deaths in Iraq were causes by the insurgents. If we’re going to ‘switch it around’ then we need to stop playing make believe history.
[/quote]

Nope. A country that is the erstwhile ally of the USA did something like this - Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. One of the creepiest theocratic and cleptocratic regimes ever.

Just to point out the hypocrisy anyway, a certain state still tries to shift the blame for a terrorist attack to the victims for “not evacuating the building”:

And tried to shift the blame once again:

Given? No. The British mandate Palestine was partitioned according to the UN plan. Arabs thought they could destroy the newly formed state, Israelis were quicker to draw the gun so to speak. And that was the 1948 war in a nutshell.

I worked on a project in Saudi Arabia and I have to completely agree on this one. For me, it seedem very similar to a slave owning society. At the top are bunch of tiny, ignorant bearded dudes who drive their ostentatiously luxurious giant SUVs and practically rule over the indentured servants - Filipinos, Thais etc.

Agreed. Killing daughters for twice looking at a man on a motorcycle? That can happen only in countries such as Pakistan.

Although, I must add that the demographic expansion of the Haredi Jews may in turn dramatically shift the Israeli identity, shifting away from the secular culture of Tel-Aviv into something more similar to their Arab neighbors.

Attacking girls going to school? Check. Segregated buses? Check. Different sides of the street for women and men? Check.

And here lies the crux of the problem. Ignorance. Most muslim countries (excluding Turkey who is currently just trying to reclaim the glory of their Ottoman ancestors) have this huge problem, exacerbate by Saudi funding of religious schools where tampered Korans are taught. This rota learning of ancient religious texts hasn’t really helped anyone.

And if you can convince the general public in these countries that a popular detergent is named after Ariel Sharon, you’ve got a serious issue on your hands.

On the other hand, it’s not difficult to imagine the stark choices facing the youths in, let’s say Gaza. You’ve got no education options(except madrassas run by Hamas), you live in the worlds largest most densely populated ghetto and have no prospect of employment, work or marriage. Your only interaction with Israel is watching Hellfire missiles falling on dense clusters of apartments and the occasional harassment on a check point while trying to cross into West Bank.

One can easily fall prey to the terrorist groups in search for eternal glory and those virgins (actually grapes) promised.

Interestingly, it seems what drove the notorious “Engineer” to join Hamas was the decision of Israeli authorities not to issue him a visa to study in Jordan.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]Marzouk wrote:
6(re: clitorectomy). Hmm ok. Again some biased over exaggeration here. Probably has happened quite a lot. But it’s no worse than what goes on in any other country. [/quote]
lol. Yeah, clitorectomys are pretty common everywhere. FACEPALM

[quote]
There are over 1 billion muslims int he world, the points you mentioned are a minority of extreme religious people. …Instead of blasting Islam and Muslim on the internet, try meeting the 99.9% who are actually just normal people.[/quote]
If this is only a small minority of extremists, then your Muslim people should have little difficulty taking out their trash. Your people have neglected this, or secretly harbour animosity to those proclaimed “infidels”, that you do nothing about it. They’re making your people look bad, and your people should be the ones that deal with these radicals internally, and you simply haven’t.
What have you done about this?

And about your crazy white person comparison, you don’t see whole Caucasian communities going “HURRAH” when a civilian shooting(or whatever incident) occurs. They’re condemned and not idolized/praised. Logic fail Marzouk. You come off as a fucking sympathizer.[/quote]

They ain’t my people… I’m not a Muslim. I live in a muslim country and have done for 3 years. My dads family are muslim.

It’s just disappointing how prejudiced and closed minded people are.

Amber Warning Amber Warning! A man with brown skin and a beard has been walking with a rucksack…

And it’s amusing how Americans are so quick to put Muslims and Arabs down, when 60 years ago a Black person couldn’t even sit next to a white person on the bus or use the same toilet as one.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

World Public Opinion: 81% of Egyptians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country

Pew Research (2010): 77% of Egyptian Muslims favor floggings and amputation

Pew Research (2010): 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers[/quote]

Ball’s in your court, Marzouk.

But let me guess… The research is flawed, or it’s all a Western lie, right?[/quote]

The research is probably accurate. So? How does this effect anyone else? You don’t have to live by these laws so why do you care?

If someone asked me in poll ‘do you support the death penalty’ and i said yes, does that make me an extremist muslim?

[quote]loppar wrote:

Nope. A country that is the erstwhile ally of the USA did something like this - Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. One of the creepiest theocratic and cleptocratic regimes ever.

[/quote]

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Taliban and al Qaeda.

You mean some Jews killed some people 66 years ago?

I don’t have time for kooks. USS Liberty has been investigated half a dozen times by the US and found to be an accident. I’ve had this same conversation with other kooks.

Yeah those 5 million Haredi are always doing the same sort of stuff as the Arabs. ???

I think you’re talking about a group of whackjobs numbering about 100.

[quote]
Interestingly, it seems what drove the notorious “Engineer” to join Hamas was the decision of Israeli authorities not to issue him a visa to study in Jordan.[/quote]

Sure that makes sense. I’d join Hamas too if I couldn’t get a visa. ???

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Nope. A country that is the erstwhile ally of the USA did something like this - Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. One of the creepiest theocratic and cleptocratic regimes ever.

[/quote]

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Taliban and al Qaeda.

All the latter are financed / supported by the Saudis. Especially the ever increasing extreme effect Saudi religious schools are having on Pakistani society.

Dude, I’m not defending Hamas or terrorism. Israelis currently don’t have much options.

USS Liberty and King David Hotel bombings are just an example how events such as these - a questionable incident and a terrorist attack can be dismissed or incorporated into a “we were fighting for freedom” narrative.

So don’t go apeshit when the other side attempts to do something like that.

Unconditional support for Israel as advocated by AIPAC does more harm than good to Israel in the long run, in terms of domestic political options and social and demographic factors.

I’ve been to Israel several times so far (have relatives there). What you dismiss now as work of a few cooks can have a creeping effect on the country as a whole in the long run. Precedents matter. And the supreme irony would be if Israel ends up, culturally speaking, very similar to their erstwhile adversaries.

And as far as terrorists are concerned, apart from the occasional loner, they are a product of social and political factors. Sometimes they’re simply used to wage a proxy war on someone’s behalf. Then you need a pool of disillusioned, poor, poorly educated young men with a (legitimate?) grudge, financial backers etc.

So when the Qataris start “helping” the poor living in French banlieues, I’d be pretty worried if I were French. Because the necessary mix is already there.

Anyway back to the topic - looking at things in a simplified form such as “all Arabs hate Israel irrationally” doesn’t stand. Because if it was like this, Israeli Arabs would be blowing themselves up left and right, despite the best efforts of politicians like Netanyahu who label them as “fifth column” and a “demographic time bomb”.

As far as the rest of the Arab world, with few notable exceptions, poor education is often the key factor. It directly correlates the number of children couples produce and the acceptance of truths as peddled by authorities - religious or political.

[quote]loppar wrote:
…the supreme irony would be if Israel ends up, culturally speaking, very similar to their erstwhile adversaries.

[/quote]

That’s pure fantasy.

What conditions would you have put on supporting Israel?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
What conditions would you have put on supporting Israel?[/quote]
[/quote]

Start with the Mehadrin buses, then claim higher moral and ethical values - you’re already “protecting” the women from appearing in newspapers, right? It’s a slippery slope. And Israelis should have learned something about demographics and its effect on culture from Lebanon.

http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=286571

Reminds me of how Islam “protects” women.

As far as AIPAC is concerned, any rational debate or critique of Israeli policy (run by certain Israeli parties / personalities aligned with AIPAC) is prevented, either by being accused an anti-semite or a self-loathing Jew (in case the critic is Jewish).

And this is damaging for Israel in the long run.

It’s an irony that you can have a freer discussion about Israeli policy in Knesset than among US politicians.

[quote]loppar wrote:

Start with the Mehadrin buses, then claim higher moral and ethical values - you’re already “protecting” the women from appearing in newspapers, right?

[/quote]

I don’t have any problem with Haredi cultural practices in Israel. Why would you care if some ultra-orthodox communties in Israel want to segregate men and women in their communities?

No it doesn’t really though does it? You’re just saying it does, right?

Yeah, I’ve heard all that. That’s why I asked you what your problem with Israel is. Besides men and women in some orthodox communities practicing gender separation, and it reminding you of how Islam “protects” women, what critique do you have of Israeli policy?

[quote]Marzouk wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
[/quote]

If someone asked me in poll ‘do you support the death penalty’ and i said yes, does that make me an extremist muslim? [/quote]

The item in question involves the death penalty as a punishment for leaving Islam. So if you said “yes,” you’d absolutely be an extremist Muslim, yeah.

Edit: Or at least espouse extremist Muslim beliefs, since as I understand it you’re not a practicing Muslim.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yeah, I’ve heard all that. That’s why I asked you what your problem with Israel is. Besides men and women in some orthodox communities practicing gender separation, and it reminding you of how Islam “protects” women, what critique do you have of Israeli policy?

[/quote]

It’s a big deal. You can separate genders in the privacy of your house, your compound or whatever. Whenever you have creeps attacking women for sitting at the wrong end of the bus (or walking in the street without a headscarf in muslim countries, for that matter) you have an issue.

It’s just a bus, no problem.
Just a few extremists stoning schoolgirls, no problem.
Just one street during a religious holiday, no problem.

If you don’t understand this, you have problems understanding some basic concepts. Mind you, the very same thing is happening in several European countries, only in relation to Islam.

As far as Israeli foreign policy is concerned, I’ll just list a few examples:

  1. Losing Turkey as an ally
  2. Misjudging the profound shifts happening in Lebanon due to demographic factors, including the second invasion
  3. Failure to adequately manage West Bank after the Six Day war. There are several excellent books on this specific topic, for example Tom Segev’s 1967.

My point is, regardless of my critique, is that in the political arena in the US of A you cannot have ANY sort of discussion about this due to AIPAC’s influence.

And the fact is that no one cares that a foreign head of state featured in campaign ads (Netanyahu). And the fact is that he can openly fume about the POTUS at every available opportunity without any rebuke shows that there is something seriously wrong about the alliance.

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[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
The Pallywood fake injuries are starting. Watch the injured man make a miraculous recovery:

Reminds me of the screaming widow lady who was always at every bomb crater last time.[/quote]

Aha! You are talking of the infamous Flat Fatima (I call her Flatima) she of the waving hands and the fake tears.

They’re calling out all the old favourites…talk about a rerun.

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Marzouk wrote:
Why is/are America/Americans so pro Israel? [/quote]

  1. Stable, normal country that treats its own citizens fairly, including its muslims citizens (compare to how Egypt treats Copts, for example).

  2. Never noticed any Israelis flying planes into buildings here.

  3. Israelis invent things like, say, mobile phones, the cure for polio, and cures for all sorts of cancer that make the world better.

  4. It’s their fucking country, and has been despite the revisionist bullshit.

  5. Never had any Jews shoot at me, although my future father-in-law might one day. Muslims, on the other hand, have shot at me more than a bit. Blew me up, too. I tend to remember getting blown up and burned. Take it personal.

  6. Jews don’t cut out girls’ clits or throw acid on their kids’ faces for listening to rock music or dating boys.

  7. Jews may not eat pork, but could give a shit if I do.

  8. Jews (unless you are trying to marry their daughter) don’t give a shit what religion you are and don’t threaten to cut off your head if you don’t convert.

  9. The Israelis are happy to have the arabs live in Gaza and the West Bank, provided said arabs don’t lob missles at them. The arabs, in contrast, demand all the Jews die, and refuse to live in peace.

  10. Jews don’t treat their daughters like property.

  11. Jews don’t have special taxes for non-Jews in Israel or have laws that discriminate against them.

  12. You can read a bible in Israel, or a koran, or wipe your ass with the Torah, and nothing will happen to you. You burn a koran and a bunch of muslims act like assholes and kill people. You take a Bible to a muslim country and you can be put in prison.

  13. You can convert from Judaism in Israel and you are fine. You try to convert from Islam in a muslim country and they kill you.

  14. You can go to church in Israel and they will be respectful and nice. You try to go to church in Saudi Arabia and they throw you in prison.

  15. Someone may or may not make a movie about mohammed and muslims all over blow a gasket. You make a movie about Moses and the Jews may or may not go to it.

And the list go on and on.[/quote]

/THREAD

Pretty much all you need to know.

[quote]Marzouk wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]Marzouk wrote:
6(re: clitorectomy). Hmm ok. Again some biased over exaggeration here. Probably has happened quite a lot. But it’s no worse than what goes on in any other country. [/quote]
lol. Yeah, clitorectomys are pretty common everywhere. FACEPALM

Right. Cos it’s got NOTHING to do with the incredible increase in jihad over the last several decades.
Not a thing…

[quote]Legionary wrote:
The undue influence of AIPAC on American Foreign Policy.
Also, Evangelicals seem to believe that a strong Israel is required so that Christ can return during the second coming.

BTW, I’m not a pussy pacifist. I’m an IR Realist, and fully support Israel’s right to defend itself militarily. [/quote]

I’m with you on this. I fully support their right to defend themselves and we should absolutely trade with them. But we definitely should not favor them more than any other country especially considering that they are a pretty minor trading partner.

james