T Nation

Israel is a European State

You same yankeedoodles are acting all jingoist and like anything has been gained? What did the deaths achieve? Let’s see what the latest figures say- from the BBC- You same yankeedoodles are acting all jingoist and like anything has been gained? What did the deaths achieve? Let’s see what the latest figures say- from the BBC-

Lebanon deaths:
About 1,000 - mostly civilians
No precise data on Hezbollah dead
Israeli deaths:
Soldiers: 114 (IDF)
Civilians: 43 (IDF)
Lebanon displaced:
700,000 - 900,000 (UNHCR; Lebanese govt)
Israeli displaced:
500,000 (Human Rights Watch)
Lebanon damage:
$2.5bn (Lebanese govt)
Israel damage:
$1.1bn (Israeli govt)

Funny how it says ‘no precise figures for lebanese dead’ isn’t it?

What were you going to do? CARPET BOMB THE WHOLE PLACE UNTIL ARABS STOP FIGHTING BACK? I really despair that people who can’t see the flaw in this strategy were allowed to live past their first few gasps out of their mother. Do you really believe this was a war to be celebrated, or that it will even stand for anything?

All of the above were people. Most had mothers, fathers, lovers or children anxiously awaiting them. Do you get so wrapped up in your moral absolutes (‘terrorism is wrong’, ‘we mustn’t negotiate’) that you forget the deaths of all the innocents? And now the UN resolution- what did Israel achieve?

As much as i don’t want to agree with Mahmougjoliygk, (or whatever his stupid name is), when i turn on the tv and see Israel playing Liverpool in a EUROPEAN CUP football match, and simultaneously Israel is on tv fighting with hezbollah/slaughtering indiscriminate arabs, i wonder- do they really want any arabs near them at all?

Wouldn’t a better solution have been a European state? Because i know of the pain suffered on all sides to artificially insert the Zionists and random tagalongs into Eretz-Israel, i feel insulted and disgusted seeing them compete for sport like they were in Europe.

You must all know that saying about cake. Well that had cake, and they ate it, now they’re killing for more cake. They’re confused. Europe isn’t the historical, biblical birthplace of the world’s jewry (sephardim).

It is however their home for all of the time since that book was written. It must have been terrible, dreadful, vile to live in post ww2 Poland, or any other affected country. So why want to return?

A lot of people, when talking about this conflcit, just act like ‘Israel’s just there, forget about it’. That’s bullshit. Why? There was no Israel just 60 years ago. They HAVE stolen land (internationally ‘legal’ and ‘illegal’ forms of theft) from the ancestors of the people they now oppose.

They HAVE transplanted a culture alien to that environment, and given it massive armament to resist any evolution (i know the arabs were trying to kill/oust the jews, i accept that, but my point is Israel is a piece that doesn’t fit)

There is plenty of land in the world that is unoccupied. At a guess, i’m thinking that Russia, Canada and Australia are candidates.

There is no institutional European fascism anymore, we fixed that (or is there? I believe not). Saying Jews can’t return Russia because of pogroms, and most of Europe because of the final solution, is ridiculous. It’s a bit like saying Jews can’t return to Eretz Israel because Babylon and Rome had beef with them. It’s historical now.

Partisan yankees, who say shit like ‘we should carpet bomb Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Palestine, thet’ll learn em’- i don’t care what you think. Waste your own time and whoever reads your post if you want.

Intelligent respondents- zap et al, why not think about this idea.

I really don’t know why seeing an imbalance, and suggesting maybe small group a, rather than vast majority group b is the cause (in a non-emotional way, causality), is so revolutionary. They are the variable

Why don’t you strap a bomb to your self and blow up this forum.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Why don’t you strap a bomb to your self and blow up this forum.[/quote]

Why don’t you? Why don’t you have anything to say in reply? Why don’t you read my post and realise it in no way endorses violent against the state of Israel, or anyone.

Why don’t you see how analogous my suggestion for an alternate, more sustainable Israel, either in the imagined past, or real future, is more likely to survive another 2000 years than the current one.

Why don’t you see how absurd it is to take a persecuted, and therefore paranoid people, and displace/ steal the land of another people, and then expect them to live in harmony?

Why don’t you read the Balfour declaration and see how wrong it has all gone.

Why even reply. You’ve got no idea son

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Why even reply. You’ve got no idea son[/quote]

Neither do you - you have to posts others’ ideas in lieu of having an actual thought of your own.

Man i never read ‘this is what will solve the mideast conflict’ in a book. I learned the facts (you have yet to, just because you’re old doesn’t qualify you for excellent cultural or historical insight) and then i thought about what lead to each side being so pissed off.

You are another person who has nothing to say. Your replies to me are of two types (you can read back and be ashamed) 1) criticising me in an irrelevant way, ie calling me booky, ‘unworldly’ etc, which is silly and false, or 2) suggesting that war will defeat guerrilla tactics, which it clearly won’t.

People say appeasement won’t work. Well, what demands have been given in to? (oh that’s right, you don’t negotiate with terrorists. Must be why you are so successful in conflict avoidance) Partial, temporary withdrawal from some of the occupied west bank doesn’t really count for anything. This is not a bluff to be pulled off.

No substantial effort has been made to appease the indigenous people in any way, or to return land that is not even in the (dubiously moral/legal) recognised state of Israel. Gaza is still hell in a tin box. Rich Israelis buy homes in confiscated West Bank land and don’t even live there.

All of this is beside the point. I know these things, so don’t even need to consciously recall them.

What i was trying to say, is how riduculous that the jews of the world were offered a state in just about every continent, which may/ would have led to less bloodshed, but chose Canaan, and now want to play sports as a European nation. That’s right, just like Turkey are ‘European’. This is to say nothing of these two countries’ allegiances with the USA.

It’s as ridiculous as the US ‘world series’.

It’s just silly. I can definitely understand how holocaust survivors would want to flee Europe. But to constant war? And they are all dead now (i think, i guess given the timeframe) so that is just a cultural/historical anathema, not a physical dread.

My nan worked with a doctor at the hospital in which i was born, (Jane Seymour’s dad John Frankenburg) and his wife was a young holocaust survivor. She used to say how nothing could ever upset or scare her again, so was in a state of constant bliss, counting her lucky stars.

It’s not through malice that i suggested that Israel is a mistake, and a dangerous one for both the Jews and the arabs. If you know the history, you know it is as much a socialist transgression as a moral one.

Why does any kind of empathy for the terrorists’ countrymen lead to me being called a terrorist? Can’t we show support for people of non-white colour anymore? (ooh i played the race card, sorry but it is as stupid for me to say that as it is for people to say that hatred of Israel by surrounding arab states is anti-semitic)

I’ve already explained how the state of Israel was urged to completion by Zionist terrorism, the British, weary of clearing up post-Ottoman troubles, gave in. THEY GAVE IN TO IRGUN TERRORISM (something you would never do)

That’s why i say you don’t even know. Rainjack will probably quote one ambiguous sentence of mine and say some pompous shit beneath it, and harris will criticise my syntax in one clause of my writing.

dannyrunt,

Yes yes we get it. You don’t have a job and like to pretend that you are some kind of authority on Israel because you read a few books written by people with an axe to grind.

So you type. A LOT.

Do you only hang out with other little hippies that won’t disagree with you? Do you hold forth during your communist meetings to the guys that work at McDonald’s and can’t even spell Israel, that feel that your arguments are specious but simply don’t know anything about the subject so they won’t argue with you? Or do you threaten them with a blade? Or to talk them to death if they disagree?

(No one answers you because… well… what would the point be? We get your gist – you love terrorists, you think that Arabs are repressed and should try to kill as many innocents as possible in response. These are not the positions of a reasonable mind. Why argue?)

Yeah you got it chucky. There’s high unemployment round by me, and i like to read. I don’t read ‘axe-grinding’ stuff. I read respected historical stuff, some autobios of interesting peopel and new innovative fiction. That isn’t really the issue in any of these threads. Want to set up a thread to bitch about what you imagine my personality/appearance is? Please do

I never said anything vaguely similar to this, your mention of it shows you to be an archetypal cunt

Only this (some) ‘Arabs are repressed’ bears resemblance to what i wrote.

Funny you should mention, i have a friend who works in a junior position at Burger King, and he’s a straight-firsts history student, who will do very well with a few more years under him. That’s what young people have to do, man. Work shitty jobs.

I don’t know where all this blade shit came from. I have a knife. I’m not prous or open about it. Only because i’ve been stabbed before in disputes about girls. I wouldn’t need one for you if you ever appeared from your cave at my doorstep. My armament is quite irrelevant to my insight into this war.

Again, you don’t even attempt to reply. How vain of you to post anyway. Sorry if my posts are a bit long. Harris types longer personal attacks

Chucky,

Strong work.

the rat,

I don’t know why you carry on so. Just admit that you love the idea of islamo-facism. In your world, it’s a way to wow women. It’s your gimmick. Instead of relying on genuine achievements, you quote noam chomsky at every opportunity.

If you wonder at the true measure of a man, you must include what his employers think about him.

What do your employers think about you, rat? Wait, aren’t you unemployed?

Maybe they were afraid of “THE BLADE.”

JeffR

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Yeah you got it chucky. There’s high unemployment round by me, and i like to read. I don’t read ‘axe-grinding’ stuff. I read respected historical stuff, some autobios of interesting peopel and new innovative fiction. That isn’t really the issue in any of these threads. Want to set up a thread to bitch about what you imagine my personality/appearance is? Please do

(No one answers you because… well… what would the point be? We get your gist – you love terrorists, you think that Arabs are repressed and should try to kill as many innocents as possible in response. These are not the positions of a reasonable mind. Why argue?)

I never said anything vaguely similar to this, your mention of it shows you to be an archetypal cunt

Only this (some) ‘Arabs are repressed’ bears resemblance to what i wrote.

Funny you should mention, i have a friend who works in a junior position at Burger King, and he’s a straight-firsts history student, who will do very well with a few more years under him. That’s what young people have to do, man. Work shitty jobs.

I don’t know where all this blade shit came from. I have a knife. I’m not prous or open about it. Only because i’ve been stabbed before in disputes about girls. I wouldn’t need one for you if you ever appeared from your cave at my doorstep. My armament is quite irrelevant to my insight into this war.

Again, you don’t even attempt to reply. How vain of you to post anyway. Sorry if my posts are a bit long. Harris types longer personal attacks[/quote]

Here’s a short one: do you even work out?

To chucky/jeff

I’m deeply suspicious that you/you only ever seem to post, in complete accord, just after you/you have launched some half-arsed personal attack which i sidestepped. The ‘strong work’ is basically insinuating i’m a hippy/liberal whose friends are idiots, or worse. That’s cool. The more you write about me, the more minutes of bitterness you experience, adding to numerous problems in later life.

I’m unemployed because one of my friends quit, and i can’t afford a car, and no buses/trains go there that early in the morning. Fuck paying a taxi to do shitty work.

I like this blade thing now, maybe you could insult me by just calling me BLADE

To Harris, yeah i boxed for about 5 years in amateur clubs and recently got into weights. That i’m probably less experienced than you guys at benching/pulling is why i have the humility to not write essays on the art of iron.

This inferiority doesn’t apply to all aspects of life. That’s a bitter pill.

What you say will/must work has been done before (unlike genuine negotiation) and failed badly

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
To chucky/jeff

I’m deeply suspicious that you/you only ever seem to post, in complete accord, just after you/you have launched some half-arsed personal attack which i sidestepped. The ‘strong work’ is basically insinuating i’m a hippy/liberal whose friends are idiots, or worse. That’s cool. The more you write about me, the more minutes of bitterness you experience, adding to numerous problems in later life.

I’m unemployed because one of my friends quit, and i can’t afford a car, and no buses/trains go there that early in the morning. Fuck paying a taxi to do shitty work.

I like this blade thing now, maybe you could insult me by just calling me BLADE

To Harris, yeah i boxed for about 5 years in amateur clubs and recently got into weights. That i’m probably less experienced than you guys at benching/pulling is why i have the humility to not write essays on the art of iron.

This inferiority doesn’t apply to all aspects of life. That’s a bitter pill.

What you say will/must work has been done before (unlike genuine negotiation) and failed badly[/quote]

dannyrat, although I find most of your puerile postings deeply offensive, I have no plans to attack the British embassy, boycott British goods, phone in a bomb threat to Sainsburys or Tesco, kill innocent people who had nothing to with your ranting, or threaten to kill those who own and run T-Nation. Your ‘writing’ is the sort of obnoxiousness that has become commonplace on the Left, and is one of the prices of freedom of speech.
All said and done though, you remain a stupid little cunt.

Well that’s a start. Now we just have to get you to turn off the news that controls your thinking in such a persuasive way, and realise that i’m not even your enemy.

Why are my posts offensive?

I repeatedly state to a crowd of pro-US sheep that

Israel is founded on injustice

The Arabs react now in a manner that is evil and also not very successful in regaining expropriated territory. I’m sure you know plenty about this, as do i.

Israel retaliates, sponsored and encouraged by the US, in the most indefensibly disproportionate manner possible. You ever read (for starters) of the ‘assasinations’ that involve car bombs in Gaza? This is very much like strapping up and detonating yourself in an Israeli crowd, except no Israeli dies. They have better technology, and use it ruthlessly.

No one can deny that innocent people have died on each side. Who started it is a moot point, i’ll leave that. But, which sides civilans die in greater number, due to explosives and bullets ripping through them? It’s not the Israelis.

This alone makes me disgusted at the way post-holocaust jewry has been absolved of any guilt in anything. They had terrorists. They founded their lovely state on terrorism. Now the arabs are trying the same. Don’t be a hypocrite. They both need to be stopped.

Dannyrat, please move to Bagdhad where you can expend some real energy fighting against those evil emperialist Americans with your brethren. I suggest you drive a car towards a marine blockade.

[quote]THE BLADE wrote:
Well that’s a start. Now we just have to get you to turn off the news that controls your thinking in such a persuasive way, and realise that i’m not even your enemy.[/quote]

The problem here is that we are not important or TOUGH enough to suscribe to THE BLADE’S home page:

www.tacticalknives.com.

Read it, or be slashed!!!

Well, they generally include some reference to your background of unemployment and BLADE wielding. Then you somehow extrapolate this “RUGGED” background into being some sort of intellectual superhero.

[quote]I repeatedly state to a crowd of pro-US sheep that

Israel is founded on injustice[/quote]

Probably not a good idea to preach to the Jews about injustice.

[quote]The Arabs react now in a manner that is evil and also not very successful in regaining expropriated territory. I’m sure you know plenty about this, as do i.

Israel retaliates, sponsored and encouraged by the US, in the most indefensibly disproportionate manner possible.[/quote]

Did they use nuclear weaponery? How about gas? If yes, I missed it.

Bull. Nothing trumps aiming for and blowing up little girls at weddings.

Ok, I’ll put it in terms you can understand. Imagine that pox tried to smother you in his pig fat. You, who are trained in KUKRI HEAVY DUTY GHURKA COMBAT would try to not to let loose with your battle-cry of “HACK! SLASH! WHACK!” However, pox’s fat ass would inevitably absorb some collateral damage.

Got it?

Rubbish. There is no justifying terrorism that aims to cause maximum civilian casualties.

JeffR

Wow, rainjack and harris, way to display your intelligence with those responses, considering they had no relevance to the original post.

I despise all this crap, and personally I think the jews and arabs are all equivocally wastes of human beings as far as blowing each other up.

Dannyrat makes a valid point though, Israel doesn’t belong there. They created their own issues by moving into the belly of the beast, as opposed to elsehwere; stubborn jackasses. I don’t in any way condone the terrorist shitheads who blow themselves up and kill innocents, but this is a conflict that seems like it may never end.

[quote]MisterAmazing wrote:
Wow, rainjack and harris, way to display your intelligence with those responses, considering they had no relevance to the original post.

I despise all this crap, and personally I think the jews and arabs are all equivocally wastes of human beings as far as blowing each other up.

Dannyrat makes a valid point though, Israel doesn’t belong there. They created their own issues by moving into the belly of the beast, as opposed to elsehwere; stubborn jackasses. I don’t in any way condone the terrorist shitheads who blow themselves up and kill innocents, but this is a conflict that seems like it may never end. [/quote]

No, he doesn’t make a point.

He has, and will continue to, whine about how Israel shouldn’t be there.

It is. Deal with it.

And to equate military action with walking on a bus full of children with a bomb strapped to you is the height of asininity.

Your name…it’s ironic, huh?

A serious point ghengis- It’s sure that not all Americans are responsible for things dictated by their state or president!

I don’t want to blow any shit up on behalf of a grievance that intensified 60 years ago. So much time has passed.

I think from an objective position that Israel is in a minority, but also that it’s existence as a state is unassailable. That’s why i predict further conflict for as long as both sides only pursue agressive means of reconciling their claims to equity.

Is this in doubt?

There must be a foundation of sentient young people who can empathise regardless of the state. To threaten but not discuss, to attack but not accost, will not work.

I’m saying that a suitable government on each side, that is genuinely giving and receiving to find balance, is the surest path to less constant civilian deaths.

I’m not sure that negotiation will work. But we need a change.

This may not happen immediately of course. It may even be invisible for a while. But when young children can grow and be calm, i bet there’ll be far less deaths than now.

Too mnay people stand between the would-be combatants, open war is slaughter in these conditions.

Maybe you disagree which is fine.

Why, don’t we give love a chance (haha)

A small reply to Jeffr-

[quote] Israel retaliates, sponsored and encouraged by the US, in the most indefensibly disproportionate manner possible.

Did they use nuclear weaponery? How about gas? If yes, I missed it.

You ever read (for starters) of the ‘assasinations’ that involve car bombs in Gaza? This is very much like strapping up and detonating yourself in an Israeli crowd, except no Israeli dies. They have better technology, and use it ruthlessly.

Bull. Nothing trumps aiming for and blowing up little girls at weddings.[/quote]

As far as i’m concerned, the intent of evil is one thing, to wag your finger at or curse under your breath, opposed to actual murder, which seems in expression similar by any method.

Gas, Tanks running you over, Terrorist man exploding near people who are young and old, Rocket exploding near people who are young and old. All of them die without any justice. That’s evil to stop.

The level of fanaticism shown by the islamic terrorism? I hate that and it’s repulsive to me.

Something made that happen. (Anyone doubt this?) That’s not saying @i love that chain of causality’. Something caused the suicide bomber mentality.

I suggest that’s the first place we start, at the root.

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
A serious point ghengis- It’s sure that not all Americans are responsible for things dictated by their state or president!

I don’t want to blow any shit up on behalf of a grievance that intensified 60 years ago. So much time has passed.

I think from an objective position that Israel is in a minority, but also that it’s existence as a state is unassailable. That’s why i predict further conflict for as long as both sides only pursue agressive means of reconciling their claims to equity.

Is this in doubt?

There must be a foundation of sentient young people who can empathise regardless of the state. To threaten but not discuss, to attack but not accost, will not work.

I’m saying that a suitable government on each side, that is genuinely giving and receiving to find balance, is the surest path to less constant civilian deaths.

I’m not sure that negotiation will work. But we need a change.

This may not happen immediately of course. It may even be invisible for a while. But when young children can grow and be calm, i bet there’ll be far less deaths than now.

Too mnay people stand between the would-be combatants, open war is slaughter in these conditions.

Maybe you disagree which is fine.

Why, don’t we give love a chance (haha)

[/quote]

If you write so much about historical analysis and objective reasoning you should be able to come up with something a whole lot more convincing than ‘if only they didn’t hate each other so much maybe they would sing and dance in the flowers.’

They do hate each other, one wants to destroy the other, and they are fighting a war. Your solution is just positing that the problem doesn’t exist.

In short Israel does not belong there. It was shoved down the local people’s throats.

So the jews are a pain in the ass on a world scale. Is that what you’re saying?