Israel: Give Me A Motive!

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
So when Israeli troops fire on a civil protest and kill civilians that’s no big deal? Where’s your justification for that?
Using schools and churches to deploy weapons from is deplorable, and constu=itutes the palestinians putting their own people in jeopardy, therefore The Palestinians are responsible for those civilian deaths…Period.[/quote]
What are you talking about? I’m not talking about a day of fighting where Palestinians were being used as shields. I’m talking about a day where Palestinian civilians were protesting and fired upon.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
How do you justify blocking almost all imports and exports to Palestinians- including the most basic of necessities for human life such as medicine and food?

THEY LET DOZENS OF TRUCKS IN TO AID JUST TODAY NUMBNUTS.[/quote]
AFTER INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE AND MEDIA COVERAGE NUMBNUTS. They’ve been blockcading on and off for years.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:My point is that Israel enjoys murdering Palestinians just as much as Palestinians enjoy murdering Israelis.

Nope. Isreal would not attack ANYONE who did not provoke it with “wiping” them off the map. Please…try again.[/quote]
Your right, Israel doesn’t have dirty hands in this at all. They’re clean as can be. Haha.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
We need to distance ourself from this conflict. Israel got land they shouldn’t have gotten, Palestinians are going to continue bombing, Israel will continue bombing, US will continue kissing Israeli ass for fear of appearing ‘anti-semetic’, around and around and around and around.

Wrong. Ignoring this is empowering the Arab world who want to ethnically cleanse Jews from the earth. Israel does not want the same for Palestine, only to be left alone.
[/quote]
Well people tend to get upset when a foreign nation comes in, carves up your land and gives it to someone else. There tends to be revolts and rebellion against such actions.

22

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
So when Israeli troops fire on a civil protest and kill civilians that’s no big deal? Where’s your justification for that?

How do you justify blocking almost all imports and exports to Palestinians- including the most basic of necessities for human life such as medicine and food?

My point is that Israel enjoys murdering Palestinians just as much as Palestinians enjoy murdering Israelis.

We need to distance ourself from this conflict. Israel got land they shouldn’t have gotten, Palestinians are going to continue bombing, Israel will continue bombing, US will continue kissing Israeli ass for fear of appearing ‘anti-semetic’, around and around and around and around.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

Killing, war and death are ALWAYS “Big Deals”, where everyone loses.

MY point is that if Hamas is hell-bent on wiping Israel and the Jews off the face of the Earth, then there will be a lot of Palestinians dying in the carnage that follows such a foolish Political/Religious edict.

Mufasa

[/quote]
I didn’t put any words in your mouth, I just was trying to get a response about the unprovoked civilian killings. Or the blockade.

Israel doesn’t have a leg to stand on if they’re starving the Israelis of food and denying them of medicine while heavily bombing and killing hundreds of civilians because a small portion of Palestines are acting violenty against Israel. You don’t win international support that way.

23

I don’t see this problem going away any time soon. They seem to have irreconciable differences. Besides that,the Arabs have always fought among themselves so if Israel ceased to exist I am not convinced the mid east would become peaceful even then.

I’m not sure how far back in history we should go to attempt to understand this conflict but if we look at WWI, Lawrence of Arabia, Winston Churchill, etc we will see that artificial boundaries were drawn at
the end of the conflict just as they were in Europe. This situation in Europe is given as one of the reasons for WWII so it might follow that this is also a reason for the conflict in the mideast. People were promised rewards for helping to defeat the
Germans then when the war ended it was discovered that while the British were promising an ally a certain country the French had been promising it to someone else.
That, as I understand it is how thenations of Jordan and Iran came to exist. Along with
this was the dividing up of the oil reserves among the US, the British, the French and the Russians. Seemed like a good idea at the time, I guess.

Then came WWII, the holocaust and need for a Jewish homeland. I don’t know of any fair way to kick somebody out of his home and
give the land to someone else but that was the decision that was made. If the man who
had received Jordan as his compensation after
WWI had wanted to he could probably have found room for these displaced people. He
didn’t see it that way and possibly he had good reasons. None of his neighbors wanted them either. Now, all these years later, we
are still looking for a way settle the matter equitably. If both sides really wanted to it could probably be done. If
neither or only one wants a solution, then it looks pretty hopeless.

To Israel’s credit, they are a democracy,
allowing Arabs to live there, vote and hold office. Since the Arabs are reproducing more rapidly than the Israelis this is
becominga problem for the Israeli Jews. If
they continue to operate as a democracy and
the demographic imbalance continues then
they will eventually be voted out of office in their country. This is one of the reasons given for the Israeli pullout of some of the territory a few years ago. It would concentrate the Jewish population in
the smaller occupied area and allow them to retain control of the democracy.

Whether they will, in fact, lose control of their land, be overwhelmed by their enemies
or wiped out by Iranian nukes is a matter of
conjecture but they are in a very precarious position. They take their security seriously. Kill one of theirs and they will retaliate disproportionately.

24

[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, why not attack the guys planting a rocket launcher near your house, school, or hospital? Why wait for Israel to respond, and then act outraged? Anyone? Anyone?[/quote]

because they support such actions!

25

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
So when Israeli troops fire on a civil protest and kill civilians that’s no big deal? Where’s your justification for that?

How do you justify blocking almost all imports and exports to Palestinians- including the most basic of necessities for human life such as medicine and food?

My point is that Israel enjoys murdering Palestinians just as much as Palestinians enjoy murdering Israelis.

We need to distance ourself from this conflict. Israel got land they shouldn’t have gotten, Palestinians are going to continue bombing, Israel will continue bombing, US will continue kissing Israeli ass for fear of appearing ‘anti-semetic’, around and around and around and around.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

Killing, war and death are ALWAYS “Big Deals”, where everyone loses.

MY point is that if Hamas is hell-bent on wiping Israel and the Jews off the face of the Earth, then there will be a lot of Palestinians dying in the carnage that follows such a foolish Political/Religious edict.

Mufasa

I didn’t put any words in your mouth, I just was trying to get a response about the unprovoked civilian killings. Or the blockade.

Israel doesn’t have a leg to stand on if they’re starving the Israelis of food and denying them of medicine while heavily bombing and killing hundreds of civilians because a small portion of Palestines are acting violenty against Israel. You don’t win international support that way.[/quote]

I actually agree, Hulk.

But its been proven time and time again that Israel will never gain “International Support” about anything…so they don’t even try.

It’s about SURVIVAL not ACCEPTANCE.

Even with the U.S. (their greatest and most unwavering supporter); if they feel that their survival is threatened, they will act contrary to U.S. wishes.

Case in Point:

When Iraq launched Scuds into Tel Aviv during the first Iraq War, MANY observers thought that the IDF was going to be released in all its fury.

Many feel that the urgent plea from the U.S. was to not get involved because at that time, the U.S. had at least SOME Arab support.

If Israel got involved, we would have had NONE.

Saddam knew that…but the U.S. (luckily?) was able to take out many of the SCUD mobile launchers.

If we didn’t “take care of the problem”, Israel was prepared to do so.

Mufasa

26

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
So when Israeli troops fire on a civil protest and kill civilians that’s no big deal? Where’s your justification for that?
Using schools and churches to deploy weapons from is deplorable, and constu=itutes the palestinians putting their own people in jeopardy, therefore The Palestinians are responsible for those civilian deaths…Period.
What are you talking about? I’m not talking about a day of fighting where Palestinians were being used as shields. I’m talking about a day where Palestinian civilians were protesting and fired upon.
…
[/quote]

And who controls the facts? From your cited article in 2004, to which you no doubt you ready access, just itching for such a debate:

"The officials conceded that one or more of the rounds might have gone off-target, and the army chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, and a large number of cabinet ministers and official spokesmen took to the airwaves within hours to express regret and sorrow over the incident.

An army spokesman, Capt. Jacob Dallal, said that soldiers in the tank that opened fire believed their lives were endangered and that intelligence sources asserted there were gunmen in the crowd. But Palestinian witnesses insisted there were no fighters or weapons among the marchers and that the tank was more than 200 yards away."

When the Hamas leadership expresses regret for a rocket hitting a civilian target, I will remember that day.

(And now, Israel is out of Gaza…at least today.)

27

From the Hamas Charter:

[i]“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: ‘Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.’"

“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”[/i]

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

28

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
From the Hamas Charter:

[i]“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: ‘Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.’"

“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”[/i]

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

[/quote]

He doesn’t believe in reality.

29

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Again- until both make concessions, we shouldn’t support either side.

And I’m saying this is impossible based on their religious beliefs and teachings and Anti-Semitism in the entire region.

To claim there should be no support from the US to Isreal, or either side for that matter, is irresponsible and negligent at best.

[/quote]
Agreed.

Anti-semitism… yea, if someone kicked me out of my house, with the full backing of a blindly loyal and powerful ally (that would be US) I’d be “anti” the other guys, too.

The creation of Israel after WWII started with noble intentions but quickly evolved into a bunch of rich, spoiled, entitled European and American Jews throwing their weight around. They arrived and immediately began kicking (what we now call) Palestinians out of their homes, taking over their land and property. Pretty much what was done to the THEM during the Holocaust, proving that, though the uniforms may change, history really does repeat. In the end, anti-semitism RESULTED. It’s less about religious hatred than a convenient way to identify The Other Guys.

How would some of the people here feel if powerful forces knocked on their doors and told them and everyone they know that they must vacate so their property could be handed over as reparation to a newly arrived people? It’s still happening. I know I’d fight like Hell but maybe that’s just me. Before you say that, for whatever reason, Israel was destined to be born and the Jewish people have some sort of divine right (Because The Bible, written by MEN, says so? Please.), picture this: Centuries from now, the population of the American Indian has ballooned tremendously, they have a powerful foreign ally, and they want their ancestral territory back. So they start kicking your descendants out and taking over. You say now, well, the land WAS essentially stolen from them and they were pushed onto reservations, even though this eventually happens to every great civilization. Now, imagine YOU, and everyone you know, are being pushed out of your homes and forced to live like unwelcome guests on the only land you have ever known. How do you like it? How would YOU react? Still not persuaded? Well, when American Indians push your descendants out of their homes and take over I’m betting THEY’LL get it.

30

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:

I didn’t put any words in your mouth, I just was trying to get a response about the unprovoked civilian killings. Or the blockade.

Israel doesn’t have a leg to stand on if they’re starving the Israelis of food and denying them of medicine while heavily bombing and killing hundreds of civilians because a small portion of Palestines are acting violenty against Israel. You don’t win international support that way.[/quote]

But Israel stopped their attacks to allow humanitarian aid to get in. They are allowing food and medical supplies in.

Why does everyone ignore that the “Palestinians” started up this fight? And all the bitching starts only when Israel defends itself and shoots back? I have seen this happen repeatedly.

I also remember people saying they would quit attacking Israel when they give land to the Palestinians. But the attacks continue.

I do agree that Israel has used harsh tactics, but look at what they are up against. The whole of the Mid-East trying to wipe this tiny, tiny country and it’s people out of existence.

The “Palestinians” (who interestingly were called Jordanians before the 6 day war) have been used as the political tool against Israel.

If the “Palestinians” stop fighting, the fighting will stop between these two. If Israel stops fighting, they will cease to exist.

31
32

[quote]SirenSongWoman wrote:

The creation of Israel after WWII started with noble intentions but quickly evolved into a bunch of rich, spoiled, entitled European and American Jews throwing their weight around. They arrived and immediately began kicking (what we now call) Palestinians out of their homes, taking over their land and property.

Pretty much what was done to the THEM during the Holocaust, proving that, though the uniforms may change, history really does repeat. In the end, anti-semitism RESULTED. It’s less about religious hatred than a convenient way to identify The Other Guys. [/quote]

A complete fabrication. Arab nations encouraged “Palestinians” to leave the area only to close their countries to the exodus, thus manufacturing a “refugee crisis” with convenient blame to Israel.

If you want an education on the plight of Palestinians, go read up on their status in Arab countries.

Mythmaking seems to be the hobby du jour of the juvenile Left.

33

At least they know where to strike in order to take out stored rockets. Mosques.

Edit: Again, at what point do civilians carry some responsibility for not stopping rocket/mortar launchers being put down in their communities, snuggled right up (even inside or ontop) of sensitive civilian dwellings?

At some point, having watched rockets being stored in your mosque, launcher set up next to your hospitals, etc., do civilians lose the right to point fingers at Israel when they move on such targets? You’re not going to do a damn thing, period? And, in the end, just who is more responsible for civilian deaths?

Does anyone dispute that rocket launchers and rocket stockpiles are proper military targets?

34

Mosques are military command centers, nothing more. They have been since Muhammad, they will continue to be until Mohammedanism is a great power amongst men.

35

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
A complete fabrication. [/quote]

I suppose you know better than the Israeli head of state that spoke of a “pogrom” to describe what his fellow citizens were doing to the Palestinians.

What Arab nations? The ones that were under British rule? Or the ones that currently pledge allegiance to the United States? Who?

I do agree that what Arabs have done only exacerbated the situation. But the root cause of what the millions of Palestinian refugees went (and are still going) through remains Israel.

Yes. Those evil “Arab countries” are bombing the Palestinians into oblivion.

Hasty generalizations and cataloging remain yours.

36

[quote]lixy wrote:

Nice. You found a Jew you like. You have changed.

Keep those heartbreaking pictures coming… Makes your argument stronger.

37

[quote]archiewhittaker wrote:
Nice. You found a Jew you like. [/quote]

Meh. I prefer Chomsky. Much stronger intellect.

It’s just that Finkelstein’s reply in that video seemed appropriate given the mountain of idiocies written on the topic lately on this forum.

Can do.

There’s a profusion of images despite Tel-Aviv banning journalists from entering Gaza.

Of course, when one speaks of being happy their “monkey asses die in Gaza”, it’s probably not going to be “heartbreaking” in the least.

What “argument”?

38

[quote]lixy wrote:
archiewhittaker wrote:

Makes your argument stronger.

What “argument”?[/quote]

"But the root cause of what the millions of Palestinian refugees went (and are still going) through remains Israel. "

That argument, coupled with the “wah-wah” pictures.

Seriously, you don’t see me attaching pics of the victims of Palestinians while arguing that the root cause of utter stupidity on this planet is Palestine.

39

[quote]lixy wrote:

I suppose you know better than the Israeli head of state that spoke of a “pogrom” to describe what his fellow citizens were doing to the Palestinians.[/quote]

Let’s see, so the “score” would be “even” if I can find an Arab Muslim taking my side?

C’mon, up your game. Surely someone with “two master’s degrees!!!” knows better than a rank appeal to authority?

Wait - don’t answer that.

Good Lord - you are now suggesting that the same Arab nations that immediately went to/supported war with Israel are unkind to Palestinians because they are in cahoots with the US and Britain?

The same ones?

I have read some stupid arguments around here, but this may be a finalist. You will say anything in defense of your mindless ideology - and it is earning you a kind of fame you don’t want.

Of course that is true - if Israel didn’t exist, the Arab nations would have never engineered the “refugee crisis” to serve as proxy to try and destroy the country.

The “root cause” are the barbarians hell-bent on destruction of Israel - always has been.

Those evil Arab nations are using Palestinians as disposable pawns in a larger geopolitical game against Israel - they are fodder to a greater, more brutal end. Palestinians are cheap wheel grease in the eyes of the Muslim world.

Arab nations have exactly zero incentive to try and foster a peace between Palestinians and Israelis - they need the fighting and death to continue. Why? There is no political solution, no tolerance - only decimation of the hated Jewish state, and the Palestinian “crisis” provides them cover.

Palestinians are Stalin’s “eggs” that need to be broken for Muslim nations - Arab and otherwise - to make their “omelet”.

Never again get confused on who actually gives a damn about Palestinians - it isn’t the Muslim world.

Her points - like yours - are cake: predictable bromides we have seen before, no originality, just squawking talking points from some radical overmaster. Witness the saw-it-coming-a-mile comparison to American Indians (all the while conveniently ignoring that there was no monolithic “American Indian nation” and that tribes practiced the same brutal tactic of displacement through violence in order to control territory as much as the worst European conquerors).

As for you, worm - your low-grade “Progressist-Islamist” propaganda has been cut to ribbons more times than you can count. The only thing that can possibly bring you back to PWI is a taste for masochism.

40

[quote]archiewhittaker wrote:
"But the root cause of what the millions of Palestinian refugees went (and are still going) through remains Israel. "

That argument, […] [/quote]

Are you actually challenging that notion?

No, I do not. That case would be hard to make, regardless of accompanying media.