Is Progression All About Load/Time?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

I’m NOT pushing DC on you (seriously) but that requires failure up to 3 times in every exercise every week, 3 days per week.

When it gets to be too much, you back off for a week or so and get right back to it. It’s low volume to make up for the high demand of failure training.

But let me write it in such a way that you’ll be more familiar with;

im not pushing dc on u(seriously)but that requires failure up to 3x in every exercise every week, 3 days/week when it gets to be 2 much u back off for a week or so and get right back 2 it its low volume to make up for the high demand of failure training.

22

[quote]derek wrote:
I’m NOT pushing DC on you (seriously) but that requires failure up to 3 times in every exercise every week, 3 days per week.

When it gets to be too much, you back off for a week or so and get right back to it. It’s low volume to make up for the high demand of failure training.

But let me write it in such a way that you’ll be more familiar with;

im not pushing dc on u(seriously)but that requires failure up to 3x in every exercise every week, 3 days/week.
when it gets to be 2 much u back off for a week or so and get right back 2 it its low volume to make up for the high demand of failure training.
[/quote]

lmao sorry it’s a habit. i dont think i ever put “to” as “2” though.

so basically with what you’re talking about you do failure for every set (3 sets per exericse) or the last set of each exercise each time you do it? an example for one muscle group would be helpful

by the way what exactly is DC, i’ve seen it mentioned a few times

23

[quote]David1991 wrote:
lmao sorry it’s a habit. i dont think i ever put “to” as “2” though.

so basically with what you’re talking about you do failure for every set (3 sets per exericse) or the last set of each exercise each time you do it? an example for one muscle group would be helpful

by the way what exactly is DC, i’ve seen it mentioned a few times
[/quote]

Yeah, I was just foolin’ with you there!

You do several light-ish sets of say curls. Then you pick your working weight and curl it as many reps as absolutely possible (failure). You then drop the bar, wait for 15 full breaths and rep to failure again. Drop the bar, 15 breaths and one final set to failure.

The reps may look like this 12-4-2. It’s called rest-pause.

24

[quote]derek wrote:
David1991 wrote:
lmao sorry it’s a habit. i dont think i ever put “to” as “2” though.

so basically with what you’re talking about you do failure for every set (3 sets per exericse) or the last set of each exercise each time you do it? an example for one muscle group would be helpful

by the way what exactly is DC, i’ve seen it mentioned a few times

Yeah, I was just foolin’ with you there!

You do several light-ish sets of say curls. Then you pick your working weight and curl it as many reps as absolutely possible (failure). You then drop the bar, wait for 15 full breaths and rep to failure again. Drop the bar, 15 breaths and one final set to failure.

The reps may look like this 12-4-2. It’s called rest-pause.[/quote]

oh yea i’m familiar with rest-pause training, i wasnt sure if thats what you meant though or if you were supposed to change the weight. so thats all you would do for the muscle for an entire week or do you do more exercises for the muscle? what does DC stand for by the way?

25

[quote]David1991 wrote:

oh yea i’m familiar with rest-pause training, i wasnt sure if thats what you meant though or if you were supposed to change the weight. so thats all you would do for the muscle for an entire week or do you do more exercises for the muscle? what does DC stand for by the way?

[/quote]

1 exercise per bodypart(back gets two) and generally 1 RP set
Each bodypart generally trained 3 times in 2 weeks with rotating exercises
DC stands for Doggcrapp-don’t ask lol

26

good thread guys, i think KISS refers to Keep It Simple, Stupid or something?

27

[quote]Scott M wrote:
David1991 wrote:

oh yea i’m familiar with rest-pause training, i wasnt sure if thats what you meant though or if you were supposed to change the weight. so thats all you would do for the muscle for an entire week or do you do more exercises for the muscle? what does DC stand for by the way?

1 exercise per bodypart(back gets two) and generally 1 RP set
Each bodypart generally trained 3 times in 2 weeks with rotating exercises
DC stands for Doggcrapp-don’t ask lol

[/quote]

oh yea i actually remember reading about dogcrapp in a magazine a few months ago thinking “wtf is that…” lol. that is really low volume, only one exercise. guess it couldnt hurt to try though

28

[quote]David1991 wrote:

oh yea i actually remember reading about dogcrapp in a magazine a few months ago thinking “wtf is that…” lol. that is really low volume, only one exercise. guess it couldnt hurt to try though
[/quote]

I was reluctant to bring DC up but I had to make a point about training to failure.

If you want to get into something like DC, I believe that doing an HIT routine would be helpful to really feel what total failure feels like.

I’ll expect some crap for writing that but it definately worked for me. But that’s another thread entirely.

29

[quote]David1991 wrote:
oh yea i actually remember reading about dogcrapp in a magazine a few months ago thinking “wtf is that…” lol. that is really low volume, only one exercise. guess it couldnt hurt to try though
[/quote]

Well… like derek said I don’t think you should DC train. However take this to the bank…

" I stand by this concept: With your unique genetics, the absolute strongest individual I can make you in key productive (safely done) movements in a certain rep range, will in the long run equal into the absolute largest muscular individual I can make you, according to your unique genetics."

That’s the DC philosophy in a nutshell and can be applied to any reasonable training program. If you are incline 400+ lbs, deadlift and squatting 600+ lbs and similar strength on other lifts(rows calf raises curls shoulder presses etc) you would be GIGANTIC lol. Whether you did low volume high volume, to failure or not to failure, anything. But if you hit those numbers for let’s say 6-12 reps there is absolutely no way you could remain small unless you starved yourself.

30

a little different than the original topic of progression but ok.

so i guess the general consensus is that adding to the load is the most important thing. im still wondering about failure but i guess thats an individual thing

31

you don’t necessarily need to FAIL, but it’s not a bad thing. If you get the amount of reps you’re shooting for, or you know you don’t have another one, by all means stop, and don’t actually attempt to lift and fail…but there’s no reason not to push yourself.

And the guidelines I laid out are not meant to be a perfect set-up, just an example.

32

[quote]David1991 wrote:
it doesnt make a lot of sense to me to just constantly stay at the same rep range for the same exercise for a really long period of time, eventually u wouldnt be able to add anymore weight unless u were eating a ton of food and gaining a lot of weight each week and even then there’d be problems[/quote]

(Emphasis mine) And there in lies the answer to your question.

In regards to heavier weights being only indicators of progression and not progression itself…that is a complete lack of understanding what builds muscle in the first place.

Increased weight (load) is the single most important, and dare I say only, method of progression when it comes to building muscle.

33

[quote]David1991 wrote:
derek wrote:
Aside for the 20 rep squats I did, I never really went over 5 reps in the squat in my entire training life.

You DO NOT have to change rep ranges every 4 weeks. Where did you read that?

i know u dont have to. personally i’m thinking of staying in the lower rep ranges for squats myself just because i hate high rep squats/leg exercises.[/quote]
High rep squats/leg exercises build muscle more than low rep. Avoiding things because they are hard means you are not allowed to post here IMO.[quote]
but about the changing rep ranges i just said that because that way u could work in a different range maybe just below ur max and then get to ur max and progress further. (same would work for switching exercises)[/quote]
What?[quote]
it doesnt make a lot of sense to me to just constantly stay at the same rep range for the same exercise for a really long period of time, eventually u wouldnt be able to add anymore weight[/quote]
What are your stats? Have you got anything you can base that from? Reps are just one variable.
It is totally feasible that i can use one rep range for 6 months and gain throughout using loading variations, volume inc/dec, changing splits, changing freq. using rest/pause, statics, negatives, forced reps… i could go on.[quote]
unless u were eating a ton of food and gaining a lot of weight each week and even then there’d be problems[/quote]
what problems do you foresee?

GET OUT!! you belong in Beginners.

This is not the forum for this inane chat.

34

As many mentioned here the key is progressive overload-- IE doing something the next workout that the muscles are not used to. This can come in MANY shapes and sizes such as:

Great TUT (emphasize concentric/eccentric)
Better Form
Less Rest
More Reps/Sets (in the same given time)

which will all hopefully finally add up to loading additional weight on the god damned bar.

The key is if a muscle perceives a stimulus as a threat to it’s existence it will grow.

35

“just pile on a lot of pig iron and lift the bar! Don’t get cute!”

-Dr Squat

36

Firstly I must add that duration of overload is the most important factor in building muscle. Only then does amount of overload factor in.

This means that if you have to drop some reps to increase the weight you have not progressed.

Though I assume you are training for aesthetic purposes. Which brings in a whole different and depper scenario.

You must, as Thibaudeau keeps repeatedly saying, contract your muscles against resistence. Meaning you must feel the muscle work and fatigue that muscle. WHen you are training with this focus, then load, rep, decrease rep time or whataver progression really matter.

An example for you:

You do sqquats one week with 200lbs.
The next wqeek you do the same reps and sets etc with 210lbs.

Now most people would say you have progressed. But if the 210lbs squats was done in awful form and not focusing on the quads the only muscle that would have needed to progress was the lower back.

Remember the fundermental principle is not progressive resistence. it is PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD.

  • Phoenix Theory
37

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

(Emphasis mine) And there in lies the answer to your question.

In regards to heavier weights being only indicators of progression and not progression itself…that is a complete lack of understanding what builds muscle in the first place.

Increased weight (load) is the single most important, and dare I say only, method of progression when it comes to building muscle. [/quote]

what about time? i mean if u do all your lifts with 60 sec. rest and then add 5lb. next time but take 90-120sec. rest do u really think thats any progress?

[quote] JJ wrote:
David1991 wrote:
derek wrote:
it doesnt make a lot of sense to me to just constantly stay at the same rep range for the same exercise for a really long period of time, eventually u wouldnt be able to add anymore weight
What are your stats? Have you got anything you can base that from? Reps are just one variable.
It is totally feasible that i can use one rep range for 6 months and gain throughout using loading variations, volume inc/dec, changing splits, changing freq. using rest/pause, statics, negatives, forced reps… i could go on.
[/quote]
thats what i was saying before when u said “what?”. i was saying that if u did decide to stay in the same rep range you would have to change other variables like u mentioned (or changing the exercise) in order to significantly keep adding to the load

[quote] JJ wrote:
David1991 wrote:

unless u were eating a ton of food and gaining a lot of weight each week and even then there’d be problems
what problems do you foresee?

GET OUT!! you belong in Beginners.

This is not the forum for this inane chat.[/quote]

again the “problem” was only referring to the condition of staying with the same exercise and keeping every other variable the same for a long time.

38

[quote]hexx wrote:
As many mentioned here the key is progressive overload-- IE doing something the next workout that the muscles are not used to. This can come in MANY shapes and sizes such as:

Great TUT (emphasize concentric/eccentric)
Better Form
Less Rest
More Reps/Sets (in the same given time)

which will all hopefully finally add up to loading additional weight on the god damned bar.

The key is if a muscle perceives a stimulus as a threat to it’s existence it will grow. [/quote]

exactly what i was trying to say/ask about

[quote]Phoenix Theory wrote:
Firstly I must add that duration of overload is the most important factor in building muscle. Only then does amount of overload factor in.

This means that if you have to drop some reps to increase the weight you have not progressed.

Though I assume you are training for aesthetic purposes. Which brings in a whole different and depper scenario.

You must, as Thibaudeau keeps repeatedly saying, contract your muscles against resistence. Meaning you must feel the muscle work and fatigue that muscle. WHen you are training with this focus, then load, rep, decrease rep time or whataver progression really matter.

An example for you:

You do sqquats one week with 200lbs.
The next wqeek you do the same reps and sets etc with 210lbs.

Now most people would say you have progressed. But if the 210lbs squats was done in awful form and not focusing on the quads the only muscle that would have needed to progress was the lower back.

Remember the fundermental principle is not progressive resistence. it is PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD.

  • Phoenix Theory[/quote]

good points further explaining my point. that it’s not just adding more weight because if its done in more time or crappy form, or less reps than really its not progress

im liking the responses to this thread

39

Progress in weight(or reps) is done in the same exact form otherwise this discussion isn’t worth having. Take an exercise and slap a rep range on it, we will say 10-15 for now. Start at the top and slowly work your way down as you add reps. When the reps get too low stay with that weight and bump the reps back up, it’s so simple it’s comical. Let’s say you are using a shoulder press machine and these are your hypothetical numbers each time you do the lift

150x16
165x13
170x12
175x9(reps too low stick with it)
175x11
175x15
200x14
210x11
etc etc

All done in good form using the intended muscles. When that movement stops working at let’s say 245x9 that persons shoulders WILL BE BIGGER. Then they simply need a new main exercise for shoulders and the process begins again.

40

[quote]David1991 wrote:
what about time? i mean if u do all your lifts with 60 sec. rest and then add 5lb. next time but take 90-120sec. rest do u really think thats any progress?
[/quote]

I didn’t say that time wasn’t a factor, just density (time) isn’t the most important factor, nor is density progression necessary. Load progression is however, necessary (in fact it’s the ONLY absolutely necessary mode of progression).

Depends on a lot of factors, and how long a time period we are talking about. Obviously you are going to hit plateaus eventually, that should be a given. But, if you are eating right and your program is solid, you should be able to continue progressing on big movements (like squats, leg press, deads, rack deads, etc…) for quite a while (6 months would not be out of the question), even without changing things like rep ranges, exercise order, frequency, TUT, etc…

You would be wrong, unless you were talking about an extremely advanced lifter.