Wise-
What’s your education background?
Hey Vroom,
From what I’ve seen you posting and accomplishing lately, you are on the right track, making progress and working hard. You are actualy a good example of how much someone can accomplish when they get educated, train hard and demonstrate some perseverance on the face of adversity.
O.K. enough ass kissing.
GO HIT THE WEIGHTS!(j.k.)
Moderation is the key. Eat a “balanced” diet and you’re OK.
Everything in excess is bad for you!
[quote]vroom wrote:
I have to respectfully say that I am unconvinced in some respects.
While I do recognize the marketing and political aspect of things, I am not easily convinced of the “dangers” of basic (not overly processed) foods.
No matter which food you attempt to eat, there will be somebody claiming it is the root of all that is unhealthy. Milk, eggs, meat, grains and so on.
If you have health issues, or merely sensitivities, then yes, I’ll agree that various foods can be problematic. However, barring issues or sensitivities, I’m not going to change any of my eating habits at this point.[/quote]
I agree. I think I’ll continue to eat my whole wheat pasta guilt-free without presoaking it for 3 weeks prior to consumption.
Wow, this thread decided to turn the heat up. I have been lurking here, there is some interesting science being talked of.
I just thought I would first throw some support Wise’s way. He is not claiming that this is an issue that is the most important dietary concern in the world - he is simply stating that pasta (and other grains) would be better if soaked. Alot better? A little better? Well, thats for the scientists to debate, but I do not think it is naive to think that a simple soak, even its help is not tremendous, can still be beneficial. After all, the original poster was asking if pasta was bad, and Wise said it could be better and offered a solution…
I am a chemist, I have never heard of phytic acid, but I looked up its structure and its more technical name is myo-inositol hexakis(dihydrogen phosphate). So for the scientists here, its a cyclohexane ring with a dihydro phospate ester linkage at each carbon (in fact, I am curious if this is somehow linked to plant’s genetic code?). Anyway, for the lamen, its a fairly polar molecule (6 polar groups) hence its soluble in water. In fact, you can purchase it (for chemical lab reasons) in aqueous (ie. water) solution.
Why add lemon juice? You got me there, but I am certain its not needed to react with the phytic acid (so there is probably not a byproduct). Why am I certain? Because phytic acid is water soluble, it does not need to change form to move itself into the water. It simply needs to find a way to escape the pasta. So the kinetic ability of that process is perhaps sped up by acid in lemon. If you think about it, pasta is insoluble in water, and phytic acid is within that pasta, so it would be difficult to extract it out. I should also point out that many chemical extractions (where you try to pull something from one liquid or solid into a different liquid layer) which make use of a water phase will make use of a large variety of additives to the water, such as acids, bases, salts, etc. to speed up those processes. Many times the additive used is for reasons not obvious. It should be pointed out that using lemon juice does not sound far fetched to me…
[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
I thought that sprouted actualy meant germinated.Thats when a seed is wetted until the germ actualy starts to grow and breaks the hull.When the germ is wetted a synthesis response causes the germ to start growing and increases its protien content and thus the nutritional value.
Isn’t this how all plants that germinate from seeds procreate?
If there is a reaction between phytic acid,water and lemon juice, then what is the by product of this reaction?
What are the effects of the by product?
Can you provide a link that proves this through quantitative analysis?
The reason I’m playing the devils advocate on this is that it seems that the origional poster may have some misunderstandings about the interplay of the basic macro-nutrients, and being inundated by an opinion from the lunatic fringe isn’t going to help.
The problem is highly unlikely to be from one single chemical compound.The problem of not achieving ones desired goals usualy lies in the inability to balance and maintain the energy and nutrient requirements necessary to achieving the goal.
So, with that in mind, Show me a study. Peer reviewed,from a major university, with complete documentation of methodology, conditions, subjects, and an abstract.
Otherwise I’m calling Bullshit on this whole soak your grain business. Carbohydrates aren’t bad-peoples dietary habits and ignorance are bad.
Phytic acid doesn’t stop one from achieving their goals, but taking solace in an unfounded idea that gives you an easy out will.
[/quote]
The information I originally acquired regarding the proper preparation of grains was largely from the Weston A. Price foundation and Dr. Mercola. The first organizations position is that grains can indeed be healthy provided they are soaked, sprouted or leavened as was done in traditional societies. This is the crux behind the foundations teachings --employing the accumulated wisdom of traditional peoples practices in food preparation. The site provides extensive insight into the remarkable intelligence and intuition of these people in maximizing the nutritional value, digestibility and overall healthfulness of their foods through the application of carefully executed food preparation–such as the case with grains. The site also features much cogent and compelling feedback from individuals suffering from grain sensitivities, who after carefully employing the methods of soaking/sprouting/leavening were actually able to consume grains again with no problems. I have personally spoken to a number of people who have shared similar experiences, so given what Ive read and the firsthand accounts Ive had, I am more than a little convinced. Personally, I have never suffered from any sort of grain sensitivities, but for what my two cents is worth, I feel a lot more energetic and generally better after consuming a meal of properly prepared grains over grains that were improperly or hastily prepared, particularly when the portions are substantial. Of course one could be inclined to presume that this is purely illusory on my part, a sort of placebo effect after reading the information and speaking with the people I have mentioned above, but for someone as critical as myself, this is not the case, the difference is there. Incidentally, if there were no palpable or immediate difference in my energy levels and general feeling of well being, I would not immediately discount the Foundations assertions, because one must consider that something like mineral malabsorption is something that occurs over time and does not necessarily produce any overt effects immediately.
In regard to your call for a University-published, peer reviewed study documenting the practice, I have not read any. I am not downplaying the merit of such studies, but I will say that as a man that makes it his business to keep well-informed, I will never turn a blind eye to something that I instinctively know is important simply because I have not read a major university sanctioned study on it. If there is anything that Dr. Weston A. Prices research on the dietary practices of traditional peoples taught us, its the undeniable value of the accumulated wisdom of people over generations. The people who Price studied did not gain the ability to consistently select the richest, healthiest foods and then prepare them in the most health-conducive manner as a result of holding a PhD in nutrition or biochemistry, or reading the latest major university published study. They were able to do so through generations of trial and error, instinct, intuition and keen and perspicacious observations which to me is worth a lot. I am in no way brazenly dismissing the value of official scientific studies, so please dont misconstrue my statements. However, I will always place equal value on old-fashioned wisdom and perspicacity and will give regard to both when seeking further knowledge on dietary matters. I think it would be a great blunder to ignore the lessons of our ancestors and disregard their legitimacy because our modern scientific establishment has not yet taken the step to validate their practices officially. To be fair to mindeffer01 though, I dont see you as doing this, but just demonstrating some healthy skepticism, which of course is good and heartily encouraged. I should also add that specifically from a bodybuilding perspective, one might also look at the sagacity of an individual like Vince Gironda–the man was decades before his time in the principles he espoused–both training and nutrition-- and he was purely self-taught. Bodybuilders back in those days I doubt they had any official studies published describing the necessity to increase their protein consumption, but they knew to do it anyway. To wait for official university studies to come out and validate everything you do is selling your own intelligence short. Agreed, such studies are valuable but I would not regard their absence as prohibitive. But anyway, for all I know, there might actually be an official study concerning this subject, but I dont know of it because I never bothered to look for one, as the information I learned in the Foundation and Dr. Mercolas site was sufficient enough for me personally. I dont hold a degree in nutrition or the sciences, but I do have a great desire to learn and get to the bottom of things and so if anyone happens to come across any university sanctioned study about proper grain preparation, please post it so we can all gain greater insight into the matter. In the meantime, Ill continue to soak my grains.
On a closing note, I would like to add that the civility and maturity in the nature of the discussions on this thread has been quite impressive given the asperity and acrimony permeating many other threads on this site, particularly those featuring controversial issues. Its always good to be able to present a topic of interest and exchange some input and ideas with each other in a productive and dignified fashion as adults should.
Wise11
[quote]Tungsten wrote:
Wise-
What’s your education background?[/quote]
MBA
smk67–
Thanks for taking the time to consider the issue and lend your valuable opinion as a chemist.
Wise11,
Thank you for the info.
As an aside, pasta would not be my usual source of fiber, maybe once a week at most. I try to get the majority from whole foods such as fruits, veggies and legumes.
again thanks
[quote]wise11 wrote:
Tungsten wrote:
Wise-
What’s your education background?
MBA
[/quote]
I can see where you learned how to write well. Not bad.
My point of contention is not with the practice of soaking grains. Poeple can do what ever they want with their food, as is all too often the case.
My piont is this-There is nothing showing that not soaking your grains is bad. There is nothing that could lead to the conclusion that phytic acid has anything to do with not achieving your goals.
The origional poster asked for some basic nutritional advice.Not a sales pitch from a bunch of whole grain sites and a bunch of pseudo science.
If your intention was to promote those companies-Congradulations, you have done a wonderfull job. We all have hyperlinks to them now.
If your intention was to provide him with some good solid nutritional advice or at least convey a better understanding of the role of macronutrients in building a better body- Sorry, you failed. It looks like your zeal to promote a product and a philosophy outweighed any objective ability to help someone.
And p.s. Just because someone is a doctor doesn’t mean that he can’t be a member of the tinfoil hat club.
Too much of anything is bad (except maybe pussy, un-expected chidren not withstanding). Now that we have that over with, Pasta is a great way to eat tomatoes. Tomatoes are a great source of Lycopene which help prevent a number of ills (Prostrate Cancer for one). Eat Pasta every day? You’ll probably look like a fat guy out of the godfather. Eat a little here and there, so what…enjoy.
[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
My point of contention is not with the practice of soaking grains. Poeple can do what ever they want with their food, as is all too often the case.
My piont is this-There is nothing showing that not soaking your grains is bad. There is nothing that could lead to the conclusion that phytic acid has anything to do with not achieving your goals.
The origional poster asked for some basic nutritional advice.Not a sales pitch from a bunch of whole grain sites and a bunch of pseudo science.
If your intention was to promote those companies-Congradulations, you have done a wonderfull job. We all have hyperlinks to them now.
If your intention was to provide him with some good solid nutritional advice or at least convey a better understanding of the role of macronutrients in building a better body- Sorry, you failed. It looks like your zeal to promote a product and a philosophy outweighed any objective ability to help someone.
And p.s. Just because someone is a doctor doesn’t mean that he can’t be a member of the tinfoil hat club. [/quote]
Some members inquired about products and I obliged by providing them with links to those products–products that I have personally tried at some point , enjoyed and therefore referred them to. I guess that makes me a sprouted-bread salesman! If this is indicative of “sales pitching” or any other kind of underhanded designs to promote a product on my behalf (at this point I can’t believe you’re serious), then I encourage you to take a look around at all the threads being posted on this site. Hyperlinks for products, services, sites, ideas, philosophies and other information are continuously posted every minute. In case you might’ve failed to notice, that is one of the fundamental points of these forums–to exchange ideas and experiences and notify other members of any particular products that we’ve enjoyed and truly believe others might find helpful as well. I’m not ramming anything down anyone’s throat. I simply brought the matter to everyone’s attention, provided a number of links, gave my two-cents worth (to you its probably worth far less), and left everyone to make up their own minds. Again, contrary to your assertions, it doesn’t seem like I’ve “failed” at anything. Read the responses–a number of open-minded members are very appreciative of the fact that I’ve taken my time to share this insight with them. Perhaps the sources of information presently available today fall far too short of your standard of a university officiated, peer reviewed study. I respect your exacting standard as well as your deep skepticism over the matter. However, as I mentioned before, I would not turn a blind eye on this matter on those grounds, and as it seems, many others aren’t foolishly inclined to do so either.
[quote]Hawkson101 wrote:
is pasta bad for you?
i have heard ‘stuff’ about building up an insulin resistance if you eat too many ‘bad’ carbs and yesterday i made spaghetti and meatballs with 5 pounds of beef and 3 boxes of spaghetti
i am eating that for lunch, pre workout, and post workout meals
is that bad?[/quote]
Let’s go back to your basic question and give you a basic answer. Food is not bad for you. Pasta is not bad for you. The goal is to control your insulin levels in your body. Whole wheat pasta is a better choice than white or durum pasta for controlling your body’s insulin response. If it is for post- workout I would go with the durum based pastas because you want to spike your insulin levels around your workouts. There is the simple answer. If you have other, more detailed, questions around this subject. Feel free to ask. Ignore this phytic acid bullshit being spouted to you. This guy is either trying to impress board members with his eloquent writing skills or he’s trying to sell you products to eliminate phytic acid in your foods. In the realm of important bodybuilding and nutritional topics that are going to make a difference in your life, this “phytic acid” discussion ranks down below the subject of whether belly button lint will affect your ab workout.
[quote]randman wrote:
Hawkson101 wrote:
is pasta bad for you?
i have heard ‘stuff’ about building up an insulin resistance if you eat too many ‘bad’ carbs and yesterday i made spaghetti and meatballs with 5 pounds of beef and 3 boxes of spaghetti
i am eating that for lunch, pre workout, and post workout meals
is that bad?
Let’s go back to your basic question and give you a basic answer. Food is not bad for you. Pasta is not bad for you. The goal is to control your insulin levels in your body. Whole wheat pasta is a better choice than white or durum pasta for controlling your body’s insulin response. If it is for post- workout I would go with the durum based pastas because you want to spike your insulin levels around your workouts. There is the simple answer. If you have other, more detailed, questions around this subject. Feel free to ask. Ignore this phytic acid bullshit being spouted to you. This guy is either trying to impress board members with his eloquent writing skills or he’s trying to sell you products to eliminate phytic acid in your foods. In the realm of important bodybuilding and nutritional topics that are going to make a difference in your life, this “phytic acid” discussion ranks down below the subject of whether belly button lint will affect your ab workout.[/quote]
I never claimed that the issue of phytic acid was one of make-or break significance for one’s bodybuilding goals, so thanks for reinforcing that for me with your own touch of eloquence, randman.
I only raised the issue and all you intelligent members are free to consider it for yourselves–use it or disregard it, it makes little difference to me, I’ve done my part to inform you and that was my sole intention.
Thats just plain false. Read your own submissions for gods sake.
You didn’t explain a damn thing except how to get to your food sites.
Your style of arguement is hopelessly transparent and you realy should just give up.You aren’t the only one who took a couple of college English classes.
Heres the scene:
Person #1- I have a simple question.
Pitcher- Great heres your problem and conveintly enough I have a solution that has little or nothing to do with it!
Person#1- Wow, you sound like you really know your shit.I should listen!
Person#2 Why don’t you read this and form your own educated opinion.
Pitcher-Because I know my shit and the last thing any purveyor of solutions wants is someone who can form their own opinion! Now get out of my way as I inundate this guy with a bunch of unfounded information based almost solely on the I Feel perspective. We’re even going to include some crap about ancient people’s practices, and that takes a lot of time and effort.
Person#2 But that still doesn’t have anything to do with the question of the post!
Pitcher- That doesn’t matter right now. What matters is that I get this crap out there. I have an MBA dammnit!
End Scene
No one cares. The question was simple. The real solution to the question at hand was allready provided.No need to use some stupid scare tactic to pedal your wares.I’ll bet it would work much better on a target that is more susceptable to the emotional plea though.Throw in a little pseudo science,and some mysterious crapolla about ancient civilizations, and BAMM!Oh, and don’t forgett the environmentaly friendly and wholesome for the whole family. I’m sure you can really real them in.
Just for the record- I work in sales.
My experience is this. I spent an extended amount of time in Italy. I tried to maintain a meat/ protien based diet but it was simply impossible, espcially considering I had to eat out most of the time, ( I tried to cook there once. There’s a good reason for the “once”. The available foods for purchase are very different from here.) The bottom line is my diet became majority pasta and bread and stuff like that. Despite theat I stayed lean and even made some slight gains. This may go against the grain of conventinal experience and research, but that was my honest experience…Go figure.
p.s. YOU’RE FIRED!
[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
Thats just plain false. Read your own submissions for gods sake.
You didn’t explain a damn thing except how to get to your food sites.
Your style of arguement is hopelessly transparent and you realy should just give up.You aren’t the only one who took a couple of college English classes.
Heres the scene:
Person #1- I have a simple question.
Pitcher- Great heres your problem and conveintly enough I have a solution that has little or nothing to do with it!
Person#1- Wow, you sound like you really know your shit.I should listen!
Person#2 Why don’t you read this and form your own educated opinion.
Pitcher-Because I know my shit and the last thing any purveyor of solutions wants is someone who can form their own opinion! Now get out of my way as I inundate this guy with a bunch of unfounded information based almost solely on the I Feel perspective. We’re even going to include some crap about ancient people’s practices, and that takes a lot of time and effort.
Person#2 But that still doesn’t have anything to do with the question of the post!
Pitcher- That doesn’t matter right now. What matters is that I get this crap out there. I have an MBA dammnit!
End Scene
No one cares. The question was simple. The real solution to the question at hand was allready provided.No need to use some stupid scare tactic to pedal your wares.I’ll bet it would work much better on a target that is more susceptable to the emotional plea though.Throw in a little pseudo science,and some mysterious crapolla about ancient civilizations, and BAMM!Oh, and don’t forgett the environmentaly friendly and wholesome for the whole family. I’m sure you can really real them in.
Just for the record- I work in sales.
[/quote]
This is hilarious stuff. Calm down, bud. I doubt that wise11 is making money off the sales of the products he’s linked. As with any information, take it with a grain of salt. It’s his perspective.
I don’t see too many complaints about Biotest plugging its products amid all the free information that they put out. And there shouldn’t be.
It’s fine to be critical, but personal attacks are unhelpful and out of line. Wise11 put his opinion out there, and suggested some products that he’s used. You can use it or you can ignore it. It ain’t like he’s saying, “Order in the next 20 minutes, and you get this knife set as a gift.” There’s no reason to believe this guy isn’t just trying to be helpful.
I think most people are strong enough to resist the urge to buy, buy, buy. Although you do see some crack ho’s hanging out on these boards. “I’ve signed over my savings account to Biotest to pre-order every future product…” and “Give me just a little hint about this product, so I can fantasize about it in more detail!”
Bottom line, you MIGHT want to try soaking your grains, and see how you feel. Throw them in some water with some lemon juice, and leave it overnight. Seems like a big investment of time and money, huh?