T Nation

Is Pacquaio on Steroids?


Well, I'm posting this in this forum because I assume you guys know the most about steroids here.

I know nothing about steroids, and little about how they affect you. If you can, read what this guys says about Manny Pacquaio going up in weight.

I ask you guys- could it have this kind of effect on a fighter? Typically, we see fighters, like baseball players, crap out around this age... but Pacquaio is physically only getting better.


Brad H. (Tampa, FL): Seeing a much bigger Paul Williams get knocked out with one big shot made me reconsider my views on Pacquiao. Anything can happen on any given night, but he has become invincible against these bigger men/punchers! I never believed the steroids thing and don't want to now, but I really have questions. I just don't believe a much smaller man can develop toughness like we have seen at this stage in his career. Is this pretty much the reason for your suspicion, too?

Vivek W. (ESB): Brad, that's the million dollar question, my man! I've had to look at life deeply, and realize that in the most wicked criminal on the face of the planet, there's something positive; and within the heart of the most humble man, there is also room for deceit. No one is all of either! This has been the most troubling issue I've dealt with as a writer in the sport. Bar none! My son has a room full of Pacquiao and Mayweather posters, shirts, etc. At 5 years old, these are literally the first athletes he has EVER truly identified with and emulated. I was raised on principles and I raise him and my daughter with those same principles. How do I reconcile one hero refusing something I've taught him that every athlete should openly welcome, and the other being completely up for it? See how sensitive this issue is for me? It literally hits home!

Where my questions started was the fact that Pacquiao tipped the scales at the same mid to high 140's since '06 (as records show) yet was rocked far easier, and never did nearly as much physical harm to opponents who were lighter, smaller men. Fast forward a few years, and not only has his punch volume gone up compared to earlier in his career according to compubox stats, (which historically has gone down for men moving up in weight), but also, there's been a difference in his threshold for pain. I don't know what to say, other than the fact that I never questioned his talent one single time over the years until he declined blood based testing, despite his opponent being subjected to the same test. For me, that took things into a totally different direction. People say that Mayweather asked for the test to get him to decline. How do you know in advance that an athlete in a combat sport will refuse a blood based drug test, (of all things)? I can't recall that EVER happening in any sport!

Others say "why only Pacquiao"? Well, because the man he's destined to face is the only other man in the sport with enough status to demand such a thing. Welcome to the big league! You're no longer the only one on your level! Mayweather walked away from a $40M+ payday when ODH refused to give him the upper-hand in negotiations for a rematch after Floyd had already defeated him. That said something to me about his value of certain principles, because you wouldn't expect a man who calls himself "money" to walk away from a purse that big over glove sizes, or a ring size, and things like that! But he did! None of Pacquiao's other opponents would have made the decision to leave this type of money on the table, and none of them have the status to demand such a test! If men and women around the world who run or swim can agree to this very testing the day of the event and still break world records, it just baffles me how an athlete I admire can say no!

I advise anyone who says he is guilty to stop, because we don't know. But I would also advise anyone saying he isn't guilty to stop, because again, WE DON'T KNOW! What I do know is that you're right, Brad, some signs do point to something super-natural. It comes down to two things. If Pacquiao has in fact lost some of his greatness with age like everyone else, does this mean that 90% of him is suddenly this much better than everyone else? Or has he, closing in on 33 years of age with 50+ fights, somehow found a way to turn back the clock and stop his aging, which is precisely what these substances are designed to do? Neither scenario is comforting. Victor Conte is the master creator of these substances. He specifically said "2 months full random blood testing, and NO MORE THAN 5 DAYS BEFORE THE EVENT AS AN EFFECTIVE CUT-OFF". Until Pacquiao goes from 7 days to 5 or less, I can only question his reasons for not taking the test! WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW!


In b4 people try to legitimately respond to such a stupid thread...


How the fuck is this a stupid thread?

There's a shitload of misinformation out there about steroids, and this is the one forum that I know has dudes who actually know about things like this.

I am curious as to what they say about accusations that are flying around this sport of mine.

If you don't like that, see your ass out the fuckin thread.


You've answered the very question you are asking in your post brosef. "We don't know"


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I wouldn't consider myself one of the super-guru types you are looking for to answer this but the short answer to your question is yes, PED's could and would absolutely have the effect you are talking about. That's why people take these drugs. They work.

You said yourself though that we can't know for sure. Who really cares though? At the highest levels of sport, drug use is ubiquitous because any edge that can be obtained is sought after.


I think you should watch a documentary called "bigger stronger faster".
This will get your feet wet and will help you to understand the game.
After watching it, you will know where to start from in your research. I know it will turn into a research for you.
Good luck


Thanks for the replies.

By the way- that excerpt was pulled off a Q and A on East Side Boxing, I didn't write the question or answer it.

It did bring up questions for me, especially about punch output and the damage he's doing with those punches as he goes and fights bigger and bigger guys.

The fact that he doesn't want to do blood testing also worries me.

Any of you guys know how much blood they'd need to do Olympic style testing for steroids? Are we talking like a pin pric here or is it more than i think?


Definitely going to check that out, thanks.


Interesting. I know you know about the fight game BBB- you think that this shit could make a guy's chin any better? I mean, I don't think so, but I'm curious as to whether the ability to take a shot could be influenced by this.


What I want to know is would not taking steriods for the final two weeks before a fight have that great of a training loss?

A Training camp can be anyway from 3 months to 9 or more, are they saying after using PEDS for 4 months, not taking it for a 2 weeks would make this guy his normal self?

I would think May/Pac couldn't come to terms more for the money than over the drugs. Extending this out has made them a ton more money and if they fight now they probably end up tripling their payday. Pac/Margarito wouldn't matter if all year nobody was talking him refusing a drug test, same with Mayweather/Mosley.


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lol, how is it NOT a stupid thread? And you'll have to forgive me- I didn't realize it was YOUR sport and you in fact are the commissioner of boxing. You ask a seemingly impossible and stupid question and expect a response as if any one of us should be able to just gaze upon him and know definitively if he's on steroids. Like there's just some specific feature that would give it away that only a 'juicer' would know about.

The answer, which you've already answered, and should have known anyway, and has been answered again by everyone in a round-about sort of way is: "There's no telling...but probably."
So then the question becomes, "Who gives a fuck?" You make it sound like the guy was filling his gloves with lead or dabbling in black magic. Most professional athletes probably are or at some point were using AAS. That's how they get to a "professional" level.

I know a ton of MMA guys do. (Not your sport, I know I know) Maybe they've been off for a few weeks, months, or years...in which case good luck trying to prove it. People only care if you take steroids and play baseball. AAS use is far more prevalent in the NFL than in the MLB, but you never hear about it. Why? Think about it...

I think all professional sports athletes should be allowed to take AAS if they wish, but I understand why such institutions have to take a stand against it. It's the only way you'll ever have a level playing field.



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I started the thread because I am involved with the sport and there are many accusations flying around. However, like I said before you dolt, I don't know what steroids can do and can't do in regards to a fighter, so that's why I'm asking if it sounds plausible, especially with the better chin thing that people are speaking of.

Now, I don't give a flying fuck what MMA guys you claim to know (big fuckin surprise there) or what your opinion is on anything else. Answer the question, or see yourself out of this fucking thread.

Now, fuck off.


Well, the adrenaline tires you out quickly but that's to be expected in any fight that lasts longer than a round.

Maybe I'm not clear on what you're saying- the adrenaline will finish early, but the cortisol is needed to continue on- but how could that impact one's chin?


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Ah so residency has precedent over knowledge here. Good to know. That's probably why all the good forum members have stopped posting here.
BRB, putting in my 10 years on a forum so I can make idiotic threads about things I admittedly know nothing about and have them backed by you.

Post script- you're grasping for straws with username quips. It's really ironic coming from such a 'bad-boy' as yourself. Those sunglasses really show the extent that you're willing to go to prove how baaaaad you are. Seriously though, was that your nick-name while you were in the pokey?


I would put my bets on all professional athletes that are successful having used some sort of performance enhancer regularly or in their earlier days coming up in the sport when the eyes were not so focused on them.

For example, muscle mass and strength built using steroids in your early twenties will still give you a huge advantage and a large percentage will stick around well into your late 30's and beyond even if you only ran a few cycles.

Testing for steroids is almost pointless since you dont lose most of your gains when your off, especially if you had superior genetics to begin with.

Professional athletes are not great because of the drugs, they are great because of work ethic, genetics AND drugs.

Drugs without talent will not take you far, but talent without drugs, when everyone is nearly as talented and ON drugs, will also do no good.

GH, peptides, analogs, the recovery on just little ole GRP6 is just astounding even without AAS.

If you had two twins, gave one regular injects of GRP6 or even GH itself, the differences in performance would be extremely noticeable, but the drugs undetectable.

Have one run the highest grade AAS in the off seasons, clenbuterol/other beta stims, combine it with complex GH and peptide protocols in cycles, come off and clear out before drug tested....

The performance level would just be radically different.

Even as a recreational users, I can tell you that if the steroid forum put our heads and stashes together...we could design a drug protocol that could give any moderately talented fighter a huge boost, allow them to manhandle more genetically gifted athletes and allow them to still test clean as a whistle.

Just think what professional drug coaches with resources and specially designed drugs could accomplish.

Hell think what the US government designs and puts the Olympic athletes on. Government drug programs make the Aston Martins of drugs, and we can make monsters using dirty, home brewed Chinese powders shipped in ziplocs and cow pellets from feed stores that are modified in kitchens and heated in ovens.


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