T Nation

Is My Endocrinologist on LSD?


#1

in reference to my results
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/low_t_high_estrogen_high_dheas_?pageNo=0#bottom

i saw my endo today with less help then expected.
he told me things like testosterone is stored in the kidneys and said my single kidney is the result of my low T.
then said because of my single kidney i will always have high estrogen and will always be wattery and slightly fatter.
apparently DHEA-s is not related to testosterone production here i was under the impression it was a precursor to test.

apparently creatine is unhealthy and full of fake energy
and apparently unless my test is at 250ish i wont notice a difference mood wise if i tried improving mine from 500 to a more reasonable for my age 700-800

Apparently my estrogen of 164 ( range 0-155) is fine and cant be changed

i spoke to him for 45mins and felt my mind regress into an un-educated state as more information as above just poured out of him.

so on that note with the help of my GP im going to run an anti E and aromatase inhibitor. i have some gyno so i was going to run a low dose of nolvadex to try and correct it although iv had this gyno for as long as i can remember.
also have been recommended proviron long term to support my natural test and help balance out the estrogen.

considering im NOT coming off a cycle any recommendations on dose of nolva for gyno and then proviron for long term use( yes i know its toxic although to a small degree)

im on my own here guys so any info would be great


Oral Steroids
#2

To answer you initial question, I’d say ‘no, not LSD’. Someone on LSD would be more open-minded.


#3

Nolvadex is a SERM and these do not lower E2 levels, often increase levels. What they do is block estradiol from the receptors, only in selected tissues. You need anastrozole to lower E2. Glad to see that you will use both.

E2 may be up because of reduced clearance in the liver. You need AST/ALT labs reported here and should also have CBC.

FT3 5.8 pmol/l (3.1-6.8) [should be near mid range]
TSH 2.48 miu/l (.3-4.2)

High tT3 and elevated TSH suggests that rT3 is blocking fT3.

Post your body temperatures! If low, its probably rT3, read the thyroid basics sticky and not related issues.

Why is this a separate thread?

Have you read these stickies?

  • advice for new guys
  • finding a TRT doc

#4

il be using nolva for my gyno, i am aware of the rebound affect if i was to take it standalone hence proviron.
my ALT is 35 u/l ( 0-55) AST is 26 u/l (0-45)

my body temperature is constantly around 36.5 when i wake up, i have read all of the stickies. i am currently taking kelp which from other peoples exp may make TSH rise.
this is a separate thread due to what my endocrinologist was saying i thought it was un-heard of and wanted to know if anyone has heard the same thing. not only that i need some advise as my last thread gave me no answers.

i have been looking through these forums along with many others for a good 3-4months staying up at stupid hours trying to find someone with my same results or something i can go to the docs with to have checked. i have read “wilsons book” and thats how i came to the conclusion i could have adrenal fatigue with my DHEA-S being 14.8 (5.7-13.4) and two months later being 13.7

cbc
soduim 142 (135-145)
potassium 3.9 (3.5-5.5)
chloride 102 (95 -110)
bicarbonate 27 (20-32)
urea 6 (2.5-8.5)
creatinine 106 (50-110)
egfr 90
uric acid .28 (.2-.5)
glucose 4.2 (3-5.4)
total cholesterol 3.6 (1.5 -5.5)
phosphate .96 (.7-1.3)
calcium 2.26 (2.10-2.55)
calcium corrected 2.18 (2.10-2.55)
total protein 75 (65-85)
albumin 44 (38-50)
globulins 31 (22-38)
total bilirubin 14 (1-24)
ggt 12 (0-60)
alp 79 (30-120)
ast 26 (0-45)
alt 35 (0-55)
ldh 147 (105-230)

im in Australia and we dont have GP’s who are just willing to write out scrips for anything we want, i have to go through a friend to get any and all meds. this is why i thought i would give the endocrinologist ago as i thought i had a fair case. asking pharmacy’s does not work here

thanks for the reply


#5

[quote]paulos92 wrote:
il be using nolva for my gyno, i am aware of the rebound affect if i was to take it standalone hence proviron.
my ALT is 35 u/l ( 0-55) AST is 26 u/l (0-45)

my body temperature is constantly around 36.5 when i wake up, i have read all of the stickies. i am currently taking kelp which from other peoples exp may make TSH rise.
this is a separate thread due to what my endocrinologist was saying i thought it was un-heard of and wanted to know if anyone has heard the same thing. not only that i need some advise as my last thread gave me no answers.

i have been looking through these forums along with many others for a good 3-4months staying up at stupid hours trying to find someone with my same results or something i can go to the docs with to have checked. i have read “wilsons book” and thats how i came to the conclusion i could have adrenal fatigue with my DHEA-S being 14.8 (5.7-13.4) and two months later being 13.7

cbc
soduim 142 (135-145)
potassium 3.9 (3.5-5.5)
chloride 102 (95 -110)
bicarbonate 27 (20-32)
urea 6 (2.5-8.5)
creatinine 106 (50-110)
egfr 90
uric acid .28 (.2-.5)
glucose 4.2 (3-5.4)
total cholesterol 3.6 (1.5 -5.5)
phosphate .96 (.7-1.3)
calcium 2.26 (2.10-2.55)
calcium corrected 2.18 (2.10-2.55)
total protein 75 (65-85)
albumin 44 (38-50)
globulins 31 (22-38)
total bilirubin 14 (1-24)
ggt 12 (0-60)
alp 79 (30-120)
ast 26 (0-45)
alt 35 (0-55)
ldh 147 (105-230)

im in Australia and we dont have GP’s who are just willing to write out scrips for anything we want, i have to go through a friend to get any and all meds. this is why i thought i would give the endocrinologist ago as i thought i had a fair case. asking pharmacy’s does not work here

thanks for the reply [/quote]

I am an aussie too mate and I know what you mean about the medical system over here. Finding a doctor to perscribe you with the drugs you need is like trying to win an arguement with your girlfriend. Its near impossible… I have found you really need to doctor shop and find one who you can get to run necessary tests and perscribe you with the stuff KSman tells you you may need.


#6

it took me 4 different doctors to find one who will work with me and hes great but he doesnt have the power to prescribe many meds he cant even get me in for an MRI, everything here needs to be approved by a specialist. And my specialist MR endocrinologist didnt even look at my blood work. The struggle is real!

my Gp will be working with me for routine blood tests every 6months to make sure im on track but thats all he can do.


#7

It’s official. All endos are morons.


#8

today i took my temp at 6am it was 35.5 although i went to bed at around 1.30am ( not by choice i cant ever sleep)
i also start proviron today at 25mg morning and 25mg night, will update on progress with it and with another bloodtest down the road.
At the same time i am going to do my best to eliminate all sugar(minus fruit) from my diet while adding alot more veggies and what not.


#9

I don’t know about the relevance to test and est but I will say that having one kidney will effect your hormones.

My Dad has one kidney ( since birth ) and battled high blood pressure all of his life until he saw and endo (rather than a cardiologist etc) and the dude told him it was his one kidney causing the issues. Dad had previously tried everything, was a competent marathoner, active lifestyle, ate all the fad low sodium blah blah blah diets for blood pressure to no effect.

So after the endo sorted him out his blood pressure has been normal to low.

Just something to watch out for …


#10

any idea on what the endo recommended for his blood pressure…? i know my blood pressure is a tad higher but i also with ease can get it down to a good 110/50 with in a few months.
any idea on how it affected his hormones.?

my endo like i said did not even read my blood test results, i am pretty well on my own here. Although in saying that i will be getting a scan done of my pituitary gland and my adrenals just to be sure.

does your dad have a docile personality by chance.?


#11

I’m not sure why doctors are always attacked on these kinds of forums as a knee jerk reaction. Sure, some are bad, but your doctor doesn’t sound unreasonable.

500 is not a bad level of testosterone. People normally don’t have low T symptoms at that level. It is a myth that it should be 700-800, not supported by actual research on testosterone in young men.

High estradiol can cause symptoms, though, and is most often due to too much body fat. If you don’t have excess body fat, it seems reasonable that if excretion is compromised due to compromised kidney function, estradiol may become high.

The doctor may be worried about creatine stressing your remaining kidney, so that is reasonable.

But if I were you I would perhaps go see a nephrologist to ask about these issues, especially if you are thinking of taking an aromatase inhibitor, just to make sure that the medication won’t overstress your kidney.


#12

500 is not low, but i had 500 at 19 as well and i would like to aim for something higher as would everyone else to reap the benefits. a few of my friends around me have had theirs tested they were all above 700, even my friend who goes out every week end hit 800. but what i really want is my estrogen lower!

i agree about the body fat i know the viscous cycle, but i did drop down to 78kg’s and stayed around 82kg’s for 3 years no abs in sight, not even definition between where my biceps end and shoulders begin. at 82kg’s i still looked 100easy, still maintaining a good 160kg bench so its not like i was small muscle wise. water for days!
my kidney function was last tested at 20 and came up good. my egfr for one kidney should be around 70-80 and i still manage 89 and above every time

the doctors words on creatine ‘its full of calories and empty energy’ i know the possible affects it plays on stressing the kidneys.

when the doctor doesn’t even look at my blood work and then tells me i have to accept being fat and with high estrogen for the rest of my life i think its valid i question his knowledge or care factor. my biggest worry was my dhea-s being over the highest limit twice and then once only just in the highest bracket, he didn’t even acknowledge it. i basically came in telling him my symptoms then backed it up with my blood work and he dismissed it.


#13

"500 is not a bad level of testosterone. People normally don’t have low T symptoms at that level. It is a myth that it should be 700-800, not supported by actual research on testosterone in young men. "

What is known is that with older men on TRT, the benefits that are sought typically need the higher T levels.

Liver seems OK. If you could lower E2, your T levels should decrease. You would need to find some anastrozole.

You should be waking up around 97.7, and 97.3 is considered the start of significant problems and you need to get to 37C in the mid afternoon.

Your 95.9F [35.5C] is HORRIBLE

FT3 5.8 pmol/l (3.1-6.8) [should be near mid range]
TSH 2.48 miu/l (.3-4.2) [should be close to one]

High tT3 and elevated TSH suggests that rT3 is blocking fT3.

Post your body temperatures! If low, its probably rT3, read the thyroid basics sticky and note related issues.

ARE YOU IODINE DEFICIENT?


#14

so when i lower my e2 my test will drop even lower…? is it because it will be binding more instead of floating around turning into E?

here i was told once again by my endo my morning temps are fine and its just my single kidney, i do feel pretty warm in the mornings and through out the day and night i am a heater, i thrive in cold temperatures.

will post up body temps when i have a few more to show. i take 500mcg of iodine daily should i be trying your 50mg…? if i was to get no iodine from my diet that would mean 200 of my kelp tablets a day
how can i help the clearance of my liver…? other then losing weight which i am in the process of doing.

once again by looking at my dhea-s doesnt that suggest adrenal fatigue and could be the reason for my hypothyroid state.?

so far the proviron seems to be working, so much energy, so much drive, but i cant get more then 4hours sleep.

thanks for the reply i do appreciate the help!


#15

With less E2, there will be more FT as less FT–>E2. However that will be offset by more FT–>T+SHBG
There really is nothing adverse here to be concerned with and increase FT is the goal.

Your endo is misinformed.

Your numbers still suggest rT3 issues.


#16

It is important that you have selenium in your diet. Iodine + selenium-deficiency = ‘potential for thyroid autoimmune disease’ as a result of reduced enzyme processes that are selenium dependent. Note that many enzymes [and vit-B12 and thyroid hormones] are dependent on metal atoms that act as catalysts.


#17

i saw a naturopath/iridologist yesterday and wow. with out any information said i have one kidney on my left side, said my liver and gall bladder are having trouble. and then went on to say i have circulation problems, bad nervous system and hormone problems. this guy was spot on!
All just by looking in my eye’s
then with more of his muscle tests and what not said i have the weakest pericardium he has seen for years, which is also spot on as i have an irregular heart beat that comes up 2-4times a year. he gave me some of his magic man stuff and last night for the first time in years i was free to sleep in any position i wanted ( usually i can only sleep one way otherwise my arms go numb to the point i cant sleep, not just some nights but every night)

just wondering if any of my problems also relate to my low platelet count, although is not horribly low it was 7.3 twice ( range 7.5-11.5)

thanks for the reply, i am adding selenium tablets. End of November i will have more blood test results to, hopefully with some scans as well!


#18

Strange… but Halloween is near.


#19

[quote]paulos92 wrote:
When the doctor doesn’t even look at my blood work and then tells me i have to accept being fat and with high estrogen for the rest of my life i think its valid i question his knowledge or care factor. [/quote]

I agree, that isn’t good care.

Have you discussed any of this with a nephrologist? I don’t know if it would help but it would at least be interesting to see what they have to say.

As Ksman said, before even considering T replacement I would try to do something with regards to your high estrogen. An aromatase inhibitor sounds like a good idea, but you probably know better than anybody else by now that you should run any medications by your doctors first, just in case they may cause kidney problems.

An AI may be all you need, since lowering estradiol will typically increase T levels and lower SHBG levels. T levels will change right away, while SHBG can take a few months to adapt. Be aware that E2 is not the only estrogen, and different AIs have different effects on levels of the different estrogens, which may be why some people do better on one specific AI than another.

Lowering estrogens may also help reduce water bloat.

Since DHEA can convert to estrogens, the high DHEA(-S) may be part of the reason your E2 is high. I don’t have any explanation for high DHEA - DHEA is a bit of an “orphan” hormone, in the sense that little attention is paid to it and not much is known about it.


#20

i dont have the money for continually seeing specialists, so instead i am waiting for an app with a GP who helps people with hormone problems who arent helped by endocrinologists.

so far i have radically changed my diet and added cardio into my already 7day a week gym sessions and added alot of supplements to support my efforts.

well if i cant get anastrozole, will nolvadex suffice ? and how much and long would i take nolva considering im not using it post cycle. something to lower my water would be wonderful as i look like im constantly on a cycle with zero definition and i know the difference between water and just being fat.

currently the proviron is helping too, not to the degree other people have mentioned. tiny bit hornier but mostly just improved mental stability and drive/focus. thats on 75mg a day.

i was never really considering t replacement i would prefer to do my best to get my body functioning normally.