Is Karate in America like this?

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Yes, the ancient chinese secret.
I get angry every time esoteric martial arts cling to that belief.
if you practise this form, your chi will manifest one day!

The “real” secrets are that much simpler, but irritatingly harder to explain.

Getting a hang for distance during a fight and dictating it.
Understanding and using your own physical capabilities.
Leading or breaking and rythm.
The magic of setups.
etc

Of course, some arts like BJJ have got a million little tweaks and tricks that add immensly to technique.
Still, hardly secrets[/quote]

I always thought it was about making the Bruce Lee sound effects …

But yes, I find most of my students think there’s a magic formula. The only “trick” I told my students was to not get frustrated because then they don’t learn, and that’s it.

a personal pet peeve of mine whenever i hear: “Bruce Lee would spank Wanderlei Silva, Mike Tyson and Mayweather for breakfast.”

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
I would just add that your students also make a difference. It has been my experience that If I ask to much of students they will quit coming to class in favor of whatever else they like to do that makes them feel good about themselves. I would love to have a room full of people who were dedicated to becoming bigger stronger and faster. Some students think that there are some secret moves, or something, to martial arts that will make them a killer of men or something and when they find out that they have to push themselves and do things over and over they quickly drop on out or start believing in something else.

so if you see some “factories” out there or schools that have less than quality students It could be that the school is just working with what it has.[/quote]

That’s a valid point, we as humans naturally tend to gravitate towards comfort. We have to either condition ourselves or be conditioned by others to be willing to forego comfort and even embrace discomfort in the quest for physical excellence (in any physical activity).

That said, systems like TKD (generally WTF) tend to attract quite a few students, and at least from an athletic and aesthetic standpoint, these arts aren’t exactly easier than say something like Small Circle Jiu-Jitsu. What these are do well IMO is:

  1. mimic what most of the general public has become conditioned to perceive Martial Arts to look like (high acrobatic kicks, stylized blocks, Kiais, etc…)

  2. never actually put any real pressure on the students or have them test their skills against fully resisting opponents, but all the while tell them that what they are learning is a deadly fighting art capable of saving their ass in a real fight. As a result the students wind up with a seriously delusional sense of ability when it comes to actual combat.

The hard part I agree is finding people who are willing to buy into the notion of being a little uncomfortable now so you can save yourself from a whole lot of discomfort later. The old saying, “the more you sweat, the less you bleed” comes to mind here. When you have others telling them, “oh, just come learn our super secret moves and you’ll be able to defend yourself from anyone, you won’t even sweat that much in the process” it makes this convincing even harder.

That said, some of the blame has to be on the instructor as well. Again, arts like TKD just practice the same moves, Katas over and over and they don’t seem to have issues with attendance. So, I honestly don’t think repetition is the issue. Fitness facilities like CrossFit gyms are popping up all over the country and advertise very intense workouts, so it may not be the hard work either. IMO it’s most about marketing and culturally ingrained perceptions.

The hardcore people are out there, they are the minority though. The tough part IME is to be able to include enough of the intense stuff so they feel like they are getting what they want, but not so much of it that it scares away the less hardcore people. That can be a tough balancing act.

Yes Sento I think you nailed what I wanted to say. There would be some blame on the instructor as well. It is a very hard balance to find. I will say that the Cross Fit Gym type while hardcore in their own rights are probably pretty fussy about getting hit and when you demand it of a student to get to the next level things tend to fall apart for many. Jiu Jitsu also has a great appeal because they are told they can win any fight against anybody all the while laying on the floor in their pajamas talking about technique.

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
a personal pet peeve of mine whenever i hear: “Bruce Lee would spank Wanderlei Silva, Mike Tyson and Mayweather for breakfast.”

[/quote]

People make their heroes into larger than life figures capable of superhuman feats and impervious of defeat/wrong doings.

What we do know is that Bruce coached the 3 top competitive Martial Artists of his day, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, and Chuck Norris, to win virtually every “sparring” (which at the time was semi-contact) title that could be won in the US. He also helped to orchestrate the first sanctioned full contact “kickboxing/karate” match in the US as well as training Joe Lewis for the fight (Joe won if you didn’t know). So we can fairly safely say that he was an accomplished Martial Arts coach.

Bruce spent hours upon hours watching, studying, and implementing what he found from film and texts of boxing greats such as Ali, Louis, Archie Moore, and Dempsey. He was a gifted muscle mimic/capable of replicating a physical action with near perfect execution after watching it only a couple times. He was also gifted with blinding speed (Lewis said of all of the men he had stood in front of which includes Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Benny the Jet Urdiquez, and Bill Wallace that Bruce was the fastest/quickest human being he had ever seen).

So, Bruce at least had some of the physical qualities that may have made him a very successful fighter had he chose to compete. But he was only 126-145 lbs (at his heaviest), so there is no way he would have stood a chance against Tyson in a Boxing match or Wanderlei in an MMA match. He had the speed and the reaction time to possibly hang with Floyd at Super Featherweight or lightweight, but who knows how well he could have taken a punch.

He was way, way ahead of his time though, especially as Martial Artists go.

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Yes Sento I think you nailed what I wanted to say. There would be some blame on the instructor as well. It is a very hard balance to find. I will say that the Cross Fit Gym type while hardcore in their own rights are probably pretty fussy about getting hit and when you demand it of a student to get to the next level things tend to fall apart for many. Jiu Jitsu also has a great appeal because they are told they can win any fight against anybody all the while laying on the floor in their pajamas talking about technique.[/quote]

Lol, I suppose you could say the same thing about any grappling art, but that doesn’t make what they do any less beneficial in the grand scheme of things.

You are right that a lot of people don’t like getting hit. If you slowly build up their skill level till they are actually ready to start throwing and defending against punches though (whether that be isolated trade drills, controlled sparring, or freestyle sparring), it’s generally not that much of an issue. The problem I see is that most instructors don’t understand the correct sequencing and progression for preparing students for sparring and so when it comes time the students go into survival mode and don’t really learn or gain anything from the experience (other than maybe how to grit their way through taking a beating or just to slug it out).

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Yes Sento I think you nailed what I wanted to say. There would be some blame on the instructor as well. It is a very hard balance to find. I will say that the Cross Fit Gym type while hardcore in their own rights are probably pretty fussy about getting hit and when you demand it of a student to get to the next level things tend to fall apart for many. Jiu Jitsu also has a great appeal because they are told they can win any fight against anybody all the while laying on the floor in their pajamas talking about technique.[/quote]

Lol, I suppose you could say the same thing about any grappling art, but that doesn’t make what they do any less beneficial in the grand scheme of things.

You are right that a lot of people don’t like getting hit. If you slowly build up their skill level till they are actually ready to start throwing and defending against punches though (whether that be isolated trade drills, controlled sparring, or freestyle sparring), it’s generally not that much of an issue. The problem I see is that most instructors don’t understand the correct sequencing and progression for preparing students for sparring and so when it comes time the students go into survival mode and don’t really learn or gain anything from the experience (other than maybe how to grit their way through taking a beating or just to slug it out).[/quote]

I fought a guy in an ammy event who shouldn’t have been there under any rules, let alone full contact muay thai. After the fight my coach went off on both the promoter and the other coach. Threatened to pull his fighters and never have anything to do with them again. This kid had quite obviously never even seen a full speed hook aimed at his head before, nor taken a shin kick anywhere to know walking into one Bloodsport style is dumb. Fortunately for him, he caved quickly and didn’t spend the night in the hospital. I doubt he was excited about fighting after that experience though.

Events and coaches like that are becoming more common as MMA goes mainstream. Lots of guys in it for a quick buck, and they don’t really careif you get hurt in the pprocess, let alone stay excited about the sport.

this question is stupid but can i learn karate by myself? there are

[quote]m.shogun wrote:
this question is stupid but can i learn karate by myself? there are [/quote]

No. No matter what book, video, or even Xbox Kinect games you own, the karate you teach yourself will never be more than that of a beginner. And you will likely introduce bad habits that will take time and attention from a skilled instructor to break. Find someplace where you have instruction and opponents.

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]m.shogun wrote:
this question is stupid but can i learn karate by myself? there are [/quote]

No. No matter what book, video, or even Xbox Kinect games you own, the karate you teach yourself will never be more than that of a beginner. And you will likely introduce bad habits that will take time and attention from a skilled instructor to break. Find someplace where you have instruction and opponents. [/quote]

^^^x2

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Yes Sento I think you nailed what I wanted to say. There would be some blame on the instructor as well. It is a very hard balance to find. I will say that the Cross Fit Gym type while hardcore in their own rights are probably pretty fussy about getting hit and when you demand it of a student to get to the next level things tend to fall apart for many. Jiu Jitsu also has a great appeal because they are told they can win any fight against anybody all the while laying on the floor in their pajamas talking about technique.[/quote]

Lol, I suppose you could say the same thing about any grappling art, but that doesn’t make what they do any less beneficial in the grand scheme of things.

You are right that a lot of people don’t like getting hit. If you slowly build up their skill level till they are actually ready to start throwing and defending against punches though (whether that be isolated trade drills, controlled sparring, or freestyle sparring), it’s generally not that much of an issue. The problem I see is that most instructors don’t understand the correct sequencing and progression for preparing students for sparring and so when it comes time the students go into survival mode and don’t really learn or gain anything from the experience (other than maybe how to grit their way through taking a beating or just to slug it out).[/quote]

I fought a guy in an ammy event who shouldn’t have been there under any rules, let alone full contact muay thai. After the fight my coach went off on both the promoter and the other coach. Threatened to pull his fighters and never have anything to do with them again. This kid had quite obviously never even seen a full speed hook aimed at his head before, nor taken a shin kick anywhere to know walking into one Bloodsport style is dumb. Fortunately for him, he caved quickly and didn’t spend the night in the hospital. I doubt he was excited about fighting after that experience though.

Events and coaches like that are becoming more common as MMA goes mainstream. Lots of guys in it for a quick buck, and they don’t really you get hurt in the pprocess, let alone stay excited about the sport.[/quote]

Sad.

I’ve heard similar stories from some of the other MMA gyms in my area. IMO I don’t care how “game” you are to fight or how badly you want to get your feet wet, if I don’t feel that you have yet developed the skill (toughness is a completely separate matter) to fight, then I’m not going to put you in there. Nor would I expect any respectable trainer to do otherwise.

I see. That must be why the Finnish MMA federation requires everyone to fight their first two bouts under a “no knockouts” rule.

[quote]Hertzyscowicz wrote:
I see. That must be why the Finnish MMA federation requires everyone to fight their first two bouts under a “no knockouts” rule.[/quote]

I am not familiar with this. Is this a amateur or pro fight?

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Hertzyscowicz wrote:
I see. That must be why the Finnish MMA federation requires everyone to fight their first two bouts under a “no knockouts” rule.[/quote]

I am not familiar with this. Is this a amateur or pro fight?
[/quote]

How does that work? It can’t possibly mean that the fight keeps going even if someone is knocked out right? Knockouts don’t count as wins?

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Sad.

I’ve heard similar stories from some of the other MMA gyms in my area. IMO I don’t care how “game” you are to fight or how badly you want to get your feet wet, if I don’t feel that you have yet developed the skill (toughness is a completely separate matter) to fight, then I’m not going to put you in there. Nor would I expect any respectable trainer to do otherwise.[/quote]
I’ve tried talking people out of mma more than into it. I don’t think I ever suggested anyone do it. The better pro boxers probably started before they were teens. By the time it may or may not get serious for them they already know if they should take that step. Most people getting into mma are already adults. The ones who will have a better chance at success have already acquired a good skill set at something. They may have wrestled in college for example. It might make sense for someone like that to try it. But I have personally seen guys in their 20s who are just starting BJJ that already are thinking of mma. Some don’t listen and enter some amateur event and get KOed. And then they still want to do it again. They spend so much time preparing for a fight they spend very little on learning how to fight. They just don’t want to train and learn for a few years and then decide if mma is something they should try. I know someone whose BJJ has not improved over the 3 years I’ve known him because he keeps taking pointless ammy fights…which he loses. What people don’t realize is that doing mma doesn’t get you better at mma because of the many skill sets involved. They don’t want to put the time in on those skills and just “train mma.”

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Sad.

I’ve heard similar stories from some of the other MMA gyms in my area. IMO I don’t care how “game” you are to fight or how badly you want to get your feet wet, if I don’t feel that you have yet developed the skill (toughness is a completely separate matter) to fight, then I’m not going to put you in there. Nor would I expect any respectable trainer to do otherwise.[/quote]
I’ve tried talking people out of mma more than into it. I don’t think I ever suggested anyone do it. The better pro boxers probably started before they were teens. By the time it may or may not get serious for them they already know if they should take that step. Most people getting into mma are already adults. The ones who will have a better chance at success have already acquired a good skill set at something. They may have wrestled in college for example. It might make sense for someone like that to try it. But I have personally seen guys in their 20s who are just starting BJJ that already are thinking of mma. Some don’t listen and enter some amateur event and get KOed. And then they still want to do it again. They spend so much time preparing for a fight they spend very little on learning how to fight. They just don’t want to train and learn for a few years and then decide if mma is something they should try. I know someone whose BJJ has not improved over the 3 years I’ve known him because he keeps taking pointless ammy fights…which he loses. What people don’t realize is that doing mma doesn’t get you better at mma because of the many skill sets involved. They don’t want to put the time in on those skills and just “train mma.” [/quote]

I would 100% concur with this. I probably fall somewhat in this category. We get guys who have no training at all, or “I used to wrestle”. Train with them and find out they don’t know shit from shineola. I Have said before I think someone would benefit from staying in one or at the most two styles and giving a 100% to it before thinking of MMA.

I struggle somewhat with students in Krav because many have no foundation to build on at all and it takes time to build that.

Obviously more experience and skill in a combative art/sport will almost always translate to more success in another combat sport which involves similar skill sets. But IME, what is most important is simply that you learn how to do things correctly from the get go and are taken through the correct progressions towards them learning and being able to apply their skills in Combat, and that they focus heavily on developing and understanding the basic foundational skill sets that they will need in their chosen combat sport. There does not need to be an exclusion of all other skill sets for this to occur.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Hertzyscowicz wrote:
I see. That must be why the Finnish MMA federation requires everyone to fight their first two bouts under a “no knockouts” rule.[/quote]

I am not familiar with this. Is this a amateur or pro fight?
[/quote]

How does that work? It can’t possibly mean that the fight keeps going even if someone is knocked out right? Knockouts don’t count as wins?

[/quote]

The actual rules say “knocking out your opponent is prohibited”. If I recall correctly, knocking your opponent out is listed as a foul for that ruleset.

Oh, and this is for amateur fights. There’s a further rule saying you need a certain amount of amateur bouts before you can get a pro license.

Good Lord. How do you win? 90% of my wins are by knockout. Also what if you get some glass chinned dude and he goes out with a moderate hook or walks into a straight punch? Do you still win just with points taken away or does the KOed guy get to wake up and continue to fight?

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Good Lord. How do you win? 90% of my wins are by knockout. Also what if you get some glass chinned dude and he goes out with a moderate hook or walks into a straight punch? Do you still win just with points taken away or does the KOed guy get to wake up and continue to fight?[/quote]

Yeah, I’m not sure how this would work either. I won by KO/TKO most of the time and controlled space by making people deathly afraid of eating my hard shots. If I wasn’t allowed to go for KO I might as well have been fighting WTF point sparring rules. The whole fight changes.