T Nation

Is It Time to Cut?


Hello everyone, my first post here although I have spent a good 2 weeks reading and learning from everyone. I also spent so much time reading trying to not ask to many stupid questions although I may end up asking a few.

I see that members really appreciate when posters give alot of information so I will run down some of the basics. I am 6'2 and 27. I have been working out 5 days a week since the first of the year. When I started I was 246 and now 236. My stats, although far from impressive, are as follows.

BP - from 95 to 245
DL - from 155 to 355
Squat - from 135 to 325

I have been taking the following supplements.
Mega Mens multivitimin
Amino Acids
Organic Flax Oil

As you can see I have made some good improvements to my one rep maximum. I know its not much but a good start and I am really enjoying myself.

I dont want all of you to think I am working out just because of this, but it was a major starter of my life change. Between myself and 9 other individuals at my job, we all contributed $50 to have a little friendly contest to see who could get in the best shape by the first day of summer, June 21st. Whom ever losses the greatest percentage of body fat will get the $500 dollars.

Up to this point I have not lost alot of BF simply because I have been trying to build muscle. I havent done a lot of cardio because a lot of the prior post I have read suggest not to while bulking. My BF has gone from 38% to 29%. I think it is time to try to start cutting.

Alot of posts I have read suggest that creatine makes one hold water weigt, some say not. Which is correct?

My typical diet. Is this good or bad?

7am - Kaishi cereal
2% milk
1 hole banana

9am - Whey protein

12pm - Baked Chicken Breast
1/2 brown rice or wheat pasta w/ marinade
- brocoli or peas

3pm - Whey protein and/or Detour Protein Bar

330-530 - Work out

545 - Whey protein
Creatine (Is it ok to mix?)

7pm - Baked chicken or steak or Fish
Baked Potatoe (Light butter)
something green

9-10pm - Whey protein

Can someone please advise me on the diet. Is it ok? Can someone point me in the right direction for a cutting exercise program? Should I stop taking the creatine. What supplements should I take, and please keep them OTC for I wouldn't even know where to get steriods at this time (Internet ordering would be fine though). Any other advise would be greatly appreciated and thanks in advance for your time and experience. HAHA, and yes its to late to join the contest...


Congratulations you have made good progress. I would add some fish oil.


Pardon, you said you've been working out since the beggining of this year? You mean to say that your bp has gone from 95 to 245 since the beggining of this year (as well as the other numbers?)?

Maybe it's because I've only been working out for about 6 months or I'm a teenager, but that rate of improvement is very admirable. Can I ask what your workout has been?

As for your query, while I've never done any of these, most seem to go to the following:


T-Dawg diet

Velocity diet

EDT (this seems to be one of the best lifting programs designed for body fat loss, I have done small cycles)

Also, CT's carb cycling technique worked well for me on small blocks when I felt I had gained a little too much weight.



nice job so far.

As to your questions.

Your diet looks good except for all the whey protein. Unless it is a slow release mixture pure whey is not a good diet meal. Try cottage cheese. At least mix a tbsp. or 2 od olive oil in to slow the digestion. Fish oil caps are great also. The fats are good for you anyway.

Without seeing your prsent workout, tough to comment on that. But if it's still working, why change? If you are really hung up on the BF challenge, go to a fast paced--superset/giant set type workout. Keep the heart rate elevated. Cardio will surely speed your fat loss combined with diet, but it may be tough with a caloric deficit to workout hard and do any large amounts of cardio. I'd try to work it in though and evalute as you go along.

As far as creatine. It does make you hold a little extra water, but it may also allow you to lift more weight more times. Nice trade off. And best of all, when it comes to bf the water doesn't matter.


Thank for your positive replys so far.


I will be happy to post my workout for you. I have it typed up at work and will copy and paste it on Monday. I basically took Arnold's beginner workout from the "Modern Ency of Bodybiulding" and customized it a little to suit my needs. Basically added exercises that I liked.

I also agree that fish oil will be a good add to my diet.

The Whey protein is GNC brand "100% Whet protein". I went from a guy that ate lunch and dinner to eating minimum 6 meals a day. Even ate small meals I find that I just cant eat that much. Even at six meals a day with the Whey protein I can only eat 2500 calories a day. I just stay to full and get tired of eating chicken. So, I was kinda using the whey protein as a meal replacement. Is that good or bad?

Also, every thing I read about gaining muscle suggests that I eat 1gram to 1.5 grams of protein a day. Thats 350grams for a person my size.


Stiddy, I wouldn't worry about the wager all that much.

Someone willing to starve themselves to lose "weight" will be able to beat you, but they'll sacrifice all their muscle and look like crap when they are done.

Even if you don't win the contest, you'll be able to bench press whoever does! Just know that doing the hard work and building the muscle gives you an advantage in the long run.

Anyhow, if you still really want to try for it, read up on the velocity diet, buy all the right supplements for it, and give it a go. It's not easy, but if you are working out you can maintain most of your lean mass and drop fat like a mofo. It seriously isn't for the faint of heart though.


I noticed you're eating Kaishi cereal. Most of that has the dreaded "soy protein concentrate" sprayed on it. Just FYI.



Gosh, with this post and the other on the 8th month progress mark, my 3 rm increases over 5 months seem meek!

I better start lifting harder


Losing fat from 29% bodyfat is not a bad idea at all. Just don't go crazy with it. You don't need to 'cut'. Just reign in your diet. I can't see ANY point in something like the velocity diet for a person at high bodyfat. Just drop the calories a little bit. And continue to lose fat. Hopefully still gaining strength and muscle for a time yet. Don't worry about the contest.


Well. It seems my gains were good then. Thanks for all of the positive compliments. I didnt think I was doing that great. I expected to be blasted with comments like, "Thats it, he can only bench 245". Thanks for not doing that!!! I have always heard that those who work out and then quit for a while never really lose the muscle or what I probably mean to say is that when one begins to lift again, it is a lot easier to add the pounds faster than those that have never pushed a perticular weight before. I used to lift 4-5 years ago. Right about then, I got married, then had a kid, and got lazy and lets be honest; no longer needed to impress the opposite sex. NOTE: I never lifted as much as I am now, but never did lifts like DL, or squats either; just a bunch of curls and bench. So, for those who have taken the time to post on this topic, dont be discoraged, spelled that wrong, if you have not made gains as I have. Also, remember that I am 6'2 235 pounds and my fat ass should be pushing up at least 300 pounds on the bench. It seems that guys at my gym warm up with 225. Anyhow, thanks for the positive feedback.

I did not know that about the Kaishi cereal.

How many calories should I be taken in? I have read that some body builders take in some 5000-7000 calories a day. Obviously, thats way to many for me. What would a good number be for me to still maintain the little bit of lean mass I have created yet drop some BF? Also, how much of it should be protein, sat. fat, ex. Thanks alot....Stiddy

P.S. I still plan to post my workout routine...havent forgotten!


This is from CT's carb cycling codex:

BMR = 66 + (13.7 x weight in kg) + (5 x height in cm) - (6.8 x age)

So for a 30 year old bodybuilder of 220lbs (100kg) at 5'11" (178cm) it comes up to:

BMR = 66 + (13.7 x 100kg) + (5 x 178cm) ? (6.8 x 30)

BMR = 2122 calories per day

Generally, if you're eating more than this, you want to work down to it over a period of weeks ( depending on how much you're eating, if you're close, you don't really have to.)

Afterwards, week by week, drop calories by increments, never going below about 500 calories below mainteance ( this generally seems like the best increment to drop by.)


If he dropped 500 from 2100 he'd starve to death. I haven't read the article, but that seems awful low cals.

Never much for formulas, but I like about BWx13-14 or maint. of active adult male. That would put your maint. cal amount at more like 3000-3250. From that number you could then add or subtract 250 or so cals a week depending on results and goals.

Also as far as protein is considered:
For muscle building of average person lifting weights you don't need anymore than 1g per lb. Additional protein to satisfy dietary needs is fine. People wanting to lose weight and maintain as much lbm as possible will take in more protein and fat and cut a few carbs.

In your case I might suggest



Pure whey protein is not an optimal 'meal' for anyone trying to lose weight. Again, try to find a protein that has a mix of casein(slow release)type protein. At the very least, mix this 100% whey with a tablespoon of olive oil to help slow ingestion.

Try eggs,tuna,almonds,beef jerky,apples and peanut butter, cottage cheese for snacks. Good fats, plenty of protein and much better overall for you than a shake of 100% whey protein.


Actually, you're right, there were a couple of things not added to that formula (as in activity and diet). You should look at the article not my advice.


Just to chime in here. I'm not sure what a 'hole' banana is, hehe... but I think the recomended dosage for bananas around here is .9 of a banana.

I'd agree that you should just say 'fuck the bet' and look at the big picture. Don't starve yourself, or you'll just feel weak in the gym, and your performance will suffer.

I'm sure that sasquatch is right in the ballpark with your calorie estimates. I had a nutritionist tell me, that I should be taking in about 2800 calories a day, when I was doing alot of cardio, swimming and weights. I am only low 160's and 5'8". I was almost shocked by that number, even though I had calculated about the same thing myself.

Just eating the right foods will go a long way to adjusting your weight ( and BF % ) in the right direction.

And I'll bet YOU that following the advice you're getting will result in long term changes for you, AND that the winner of the bet winds up a fatass within six months of spending his winnings.

\|/ 3Toes


Without proof, there is no way in hell I, or anyone else, can be expected to believe numbers like those. Especially in such a short period of time as 16 weeks. This means that your bench experienced something like a 10lb gain per week, your DL a 13lb gain, and your Squat a 12lb gain. These improvements you claim to have would be impressive over a years time, let alone 16 weeks. I say this is complete bullshit, but thats just me.


It could be that the original numbers are very low. If he walked into a gym, and tried to find his 1RM the first day there... he likely picked up something light, pushed it over his head, and figured that's all he could do. I highly doubt anyone, their first day in the gym, would push the absolute maximum weight they could for one rep.

\|/ 3Toes



Your most likely right. The first day at the gym I pushed up the max weight I thought I could do without a spotter. Certainly didnt want to drop it on my face the first day, the would have been embarrasing. HAHA. But even years ago when I worked out for about a year and a half 2-3 times a week I never hit 225 on the bench. Maybe it is because I am a little more mature this time around and putting a lot more effort into it. I is quite possible that say that first day back I could have pushed 135 BP for a 1RM, but without a spot I wasnt going to attempt it.

Thanks for all of the advice so far. I think today I am going to try to drop my calorie intake by 250. So, I have been taken in 2300-2500 so I will drop to 2050-2250 as a goal.


Just a quick note on Detour bars. STAY AWAY FROM THEM!!! Here's an interesting story from a client of mine.

My client is a Type 1 diabetic and needs to take insulin to regulate blood glucose. Typically she has to push the button on her pump once per 10g of carbohydrates.

Since the label said 22g she did two pumps. However, after each time she had a bar she experienced a dramatic rise in blood sugar. She later found that with pushing the button three times she was able to regulate her sugars better indicating faulty label claims and about 30 or more grams of carbohydrates.

Since then many bars have failed label claims. If you've got to have a bar you might want to make your own using Gourmet Nutrition by John Berardi (available on his website).


As promissed. Here is my routine. I am sure that it is not the greatest.

  • Mon and Thurs
    Chest and Upper Back
    Bench Press
    Incline Bench
    Decline Bench
    Flys - Cabled
    Flys - Dumbbells

Bend over barbell rows
Cable Rows
Lat pull-downs

POWER TRAINING (10, 6, 4 reps to failure)
Dead lifts

Crunches 5 sets x 25 reps
Side Bends 3 sets x 15 reps (Holding one 50pound dumbell)

  • Tues/Friday
    Shoulders and upper arms
    Dumbbell Lateral Raises
    Barbell Clean & Press
    Military Press

Standing Barbell Curls
Alternating Standing Dumbbell Curls
Seated Concentrated Curls
Reverse Bench Press (This is awesome to add weight to your overall bench press. Best tricep exercise I know. One can add 25-50 in 8 weeks just by doing these with correct form. If interested I will explain more.)
Standing Triceps Extension
Dumbbell Curl Burnout

POWER TRAINING (10, 6, 4 reps to failure)
Heavy Upright Rows
Push Presses

Reverse Crunches 5 sets x 25 reps
Side Bends 3 sets x 15 reps (Holding one 50pds)

  • Weds and Sat(I dont always make it on SAT)
    Legs and Lower Back

Leg Press
Standing Calf Raises
Leg Ext.

Roman Chair 3 sets x 25 reps

POWER TRAINING (10, 6, 4 reps to failure)
Straight Leg Dead Lifts
Good Mornings

Crunches 5 sets x 25 reps
Side Bends 3 sets x 15 reps (Holding one 50pds)

NOTE: I use all free weights except for the cabled flys, lat pull downs, and cable row. Free weights are the way to go to build size in my opinion and other post I have read.