T Nation

Is It Ok to Deviate From Test Only on First Cycle?


#6

Ist cycle is to see how you respond. Testosterone is relatively safe. If you add multiple steroids to your first cycle and you get side effects you won’t really know which one is causing it, making the problem more difficult to solve.
Plenty of time to add more steroids to future cycles.

For PCT you will only need one serm, either nolva or clomid, not both.


#7

I have seen this protocol a lot:
Clomid: 50, 40, 20, 20
Nolva: 20, 20, 20, 20

Or something very similar.

Do you have a reason to only use one? I thought they did different things?


#8

KSMan did a great write up on PCT protocols, think it’s stickied at the top of the forum.

379 total is very low, did you have your free and SHBG checked? You should absolutely feel much better on cycle, especially if you are that low. One of the new trends in TRT is to just take clomid, no T injections. Friend of mine did that, and his numbers almost doubled. Only catch is from what I’ve been told, that works for a while, then it stops working in some men. Problem with cycling with naturally low T to begin with, you’re probably gonna feel like you crashed after PCT. But, if your T does crash, it should make it easier to get TRT prescribed.


#9

Didn’t get extensive labs. Would do that before a cycle. Just checked total t because I have had low t symptoms for a couple years (I am 30 now).
I probably would not be considering a cycle except I feel I have less to loose since my levels are naturally bad.
I am thinking a cycle since I feel like doctors are pretty apprehensive with trt. I would like to feel the difference (I know cycle will feel better than trt, but should give me an idea).
Coming off does scare me though. I could stay on low dose clomid for a while?


#10

You’d have to google the protocol, I know it’s a thing, but that’s about it.

I’m just thinking if you do a cycle and then come off and go back to shitty T levels, you will most likely lose the majority of what you gained. If you don’t have too much trouble getting test, you could always self-administer a TRT dose. I did it for about two years before going to a doc, but I am going back to doing it myself because it’s quite a bit cheaper - I work overseas, so the only clinic that would give me the stuff to self-inject doesn’t deal with insurance so it was 2 bills out of pocket every month. For 8 injections and blood work. I tried going to my primary care, told them exactly what I had been doing and that I was trying to switch over - T came back over 1500, they refused to do anything until I had been off for three months and then they would test again and see where I was. Might revisit that, after ensuring I get a good T crash (did that last time, apparently I was quite the ass - wife was like ‘when are you getting tested?’)


#11

One compound even in a moderate amount by itself will do the job adequately.
Both are serms, yes they are different chemical compounds. Clomid, is a fertility drug that stimulates ovulation in women, and testicular activity in men. Nolva was originally intended for treating breast cancer by regulating the bodies ability to absorb large amounts of estrogen if it is present in the system. I don’t really know the mechanism that nolva uses, but it works as a PCT drug.

Either high amounts of one serm, or doubling up on the total amount of serm can be counter productive. Apart from being an overkill, you can develop side effects.
Some people don’t like the effect of clomid, makes them weepy and emotional and unstable Probably due to taking too much. It can also effect your vision.

Add to all this that you will be taking hcg on cycle your balls have been getting stimulation on cycle, pct shouldn’t need large amounts to get you back to normal after your cycle.


#12

Considering this. I could get test, but HCG supply worries me.

I am considering going to one of the T mills (defy or IMT). It seems like you get E2 management, and HCG with a T mill, but its hard to get them with a primary care doctor.


#13

I’ll read through that. I trust KSMan (usually backs stuff up with science / system theory).


#14

I like test only for a first cycle. It’s the basis for all future cycles and you’ll know how you respond.

I’m not a fan of immediately throwing in all the ancillaries that are or may be unneeded.

If you are running cyp I’d run 600 a week for 10-16 weeks and use the hcg the last 2 weeks at 250 a day then do 6+ week s of clomid 50 tapered to 25mgED


#15

Do you feel Clomid is better for PCT than HCG? I have heard of some getting good results running HCG for 6 weeks (250 iu EOD), then tapering it off.


#16

CLomid is definitively better for PCT.

HCG is suppressive there for is NOT part of ANY PCT.

It is useful in low frequent doses in the last 2 weeks of any cycle. Have an AI on hand as HCG aromatizes VERY easily.


#17

A lot of guys will use HCG throughout the cycle rather than just the last two weeks - they claim they recover better that way. I’ve never used HCG in conjunction with a cycle, so I can’t give an opinion either way.


#18

YOu certainly can. 250iu 3x a week is plenty

just have an AI on hand.


#19

Seems like TRT uses HCG when fertility is a concern. I have heard it converts to E2 like crazy.

250iu 3X a week is what I have heard is best. I know some docs do 400iu 2X which is about the same amount. I think that is more of a convenience thing (can inject with the Test).

Seems like if LH and FSH are going to go to zero, then keeping the actual organ (the balls) going makes sense.


#20

I’m on TRT and use HCG specifically for the purposes of future fertility. I’m on 500iu 2x a week, which is a little heavy, but it’s what my endo believes is best for my particular situation. I wouldn’t recommend going that high for most guys. Keep in mind that HCG causes aromatization within the testes, so an AI cannot prevent that from happening. If you get too much aromatization from HCG you can’t really treat it by taking more aromasin or anastrozole. So caution is warranted.


#21

Iron, do you have any anecdotal evidence of the HCG working (in regards to fertility)?

Sounds like I am going to go TRT route (working with Defy).

I remember reading some of your older posts (so I looked them up). You have one that describes your protocol of TRT with Anavar. Was the var for raising DHT? I think I am DHT deficient (no upper body hair, and can grow the mustache of a 14 year old Asian boy). Defy suspects low DHT from the survey I filled out, so we ordered the DHT blood test.

You mentioned how expensive it was $8/pill. How many mgs were those?


#22

So the non-scientific answer about HCG is that it keeps your testes working as if weren’t using exogenous testosterone. The scientific answer is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4854084/

It’s a tough read, but page 11 has the results of studies of men on TRT and hCG and their fertility results.

The Anavar was not for a DHT issue. It’s a long story, but the short version is that the doctor believed it would be helpful given the circumstances. It was in fact $8/pill. $800, 100 pills of 50mg ea.


#23

Just remember the low dose HCG is the best way as larger doses can desensitize the lydeg cells


#24

Two answers from dudes with iron in their user name!

I have read that article, but will look again. Most seem to think HCG should keep you good to go, and most here (the informed crew) agree that low dose (500iu and under) per shot is what works best to avoid desensitization to the HCG.

$800 is a big bill! I guess that is for 3 months, but still pretty expensive. I guess if a TRT doctor wanted to prescribe var to me, and I knew it was legit, I would do it.


#25

That was my thought as well. Kind of hard to say no to that opportunity. It’s funny because if you’d asked me at the time if I thought it was worth it I would have been kind of meh. Looking back at pictures from the end of that run I appreciate how much more lean and dry I looked. I can definitely see the appeal.