I’ve seen guys with big biceps who are unsurprisingly very strong on curls. They can DB curl 75+ lbs for reps, and can usually hammer curl even more than that. However, I’ve also seen guys with big biceps who often stay at 30 - 45lbs with their DB curls, but really focus on squeezing and getting everything they can from each rep. This begs the question, is aiming to get very strong on curl variations needed to get big biceps? With other muscle groups at least, it seems that getting a lot stronger over time is required.
I ask because today was the first day my joints allowed me to do normal technique on DB curls with a heavier weight and go to failure. Before this, I was forced to stay light and milk each rep with technique, long squeezes, etc. I’d usually stay at 25 - 35lbs for DB curls, and 30 - 40lbs for hammers (sometimes 40lbs for regular curls, sometimes even 20lbs). I’ve seen videos of huge guys curling not much more than that, but many of them got to big curl poundages in their past. Now that I can train biceps normally, I’m wondering if the best route is aiming to up the poundages.
I will say that I’m able to tweak curl technique to make the 30lbs DBs feel as hard as 45lbs. For whatever reason, curls are weird like that. But still, it’s only 30lbs, you know?
Also:
Same question, but with lateral raises. I’ve seen guys with huge lateral heads who focused on overload and got to bent-arm laterals with 70+ lbs. But there are also guys with big lateral heads who stick to strict laterals with constant tension and no more than 25/30lbs. I’m forced to stick to super strict laterals for now, but I thought I’d ask.
Gradually increase weight or reps without sacrificing/deviating from your chosen form.
Spend some time using stricter form, spend some time letting it be a little looser but always try to progress either weight, reps or a better feeling of tension.
I feel like this boils down to the whole weight vs form debate.
With strict form, I’m curling 40-45lb Dumbbells.
With a bit of english, I could curl 65-70lb Dumbbells.
I’ve found the most growth doing form-focused DB curls (high rep) and weight-focused BB curls(low-med rep), in the same workout.
^I’ve actually found the most growth in doing this for every muscle.
Check out Jordan Peter’s stuff, or my log… i think this approach works incredibly well for anyone advanced enough that they can rely on form without having to think about it.
I remember watching a Kai Greene training video a few years ago, and I believe he was curling either 20 or 25 lbs dumbbells in the video. Obviously he doesn’t go with dumbbells this light ALL the time, but his point was that a dude at the absolute highest level of bodybuilding can still benefit from very light curls. I personally don’t ever go above 35 lbs dumbbells, I see no need for it. I prefer to rely on tempo/TUT variations, and higher reps, with lighter weights.
I don’t believe that ‘traditional’ progressive overload, where you’re chasing higher weights every few weeks, will work long-term on curls. You’ll hit a ceiling pretty damn quickly, and you won’t get the most out of the exercise in terms of hypertrophy.
With strict form, I’m curling 40-45lb Dumbbells.
With a bit of english, I could curl 65-70lb Dumbbells.
Would you say building up to loose form 70lbs DB curls helped get you to strict 40-45lbs curls? I’ve been forced to be super strict due to Elhers-Danlos, but it seems most guys spend their first couple of years getting stronger and not worried about being super strict.
or my log… i think this approach works incredibly well for anyone advanced enough that they can rely on form without having to think about it.
I’ve skimmed your log a few times. You go as low as 25lbs on curls sometimes. Would you say this more strict approach has worked better for you than say… getting to 80lbs DB curls/eqivalent weight on BB curls?
I personally don’t ever go above 35 lbs dumbbells, I see no need for it. I prefer to rely on tempo/TUT variations, and higher reps, with lighter weights.
Have you attempted to go heavier and gain strength? If so, did you feel like your biceps weren’t getting much out of the exercise?
I know adding weight to strict curls is annoying, but it does seem that most guys who now rely on strict form/lighter weights did spend time adding weight in the past. I’m just wondering if it’s a requirement like with most other body parts and lifts.
What I’ve been doing (out of necessity) is stick with 20 - 35lbs but make it harder over time. However, I doubt I could do 50x10 for example with “normal form,” which makes me wonder if the lowest hanging fruit is just progressing from 50lbs x some to 60lbs x a lot.
Sure? I don’t curl heavy DBs really ever because i find it very difficult to control elbows and get meaningful reps. I meant this as in i can curl heavy DB, i just don’t (i do heavy BB or EZ Curl).
I agree with this approach with everything except compound movements and any exercise where bad form can injure you (no one ever got injured off a bad form curl, but bad form Deadlifts=Scoliosis).
Usually with 3 second negatives and 15+ reps, but yeah sometimes when the 30s are taken (or I’m being conservative in a new program).
Does it work better? No. Working both light and heavy works better though.
Only when i was a newb some 15 years ago. Biceps strength isn’t really something to brag about IMO, I’m just trying to fill sleeves on every shirt I put on. I do not think aiming for strength increases (<6 reps) is the key to gains for any sufficiently trained lifter (it works well for newbies though). I don’t think i would get much out of applying any strength template to my curls… strength may go up, but i doubt size will change. I’ve also got 17.5" arms at 5’9 though, so what might work for less trained folks, has a good chance of not working for me now.
Best advice i have is:
-2 rep ranges (heavy one is 6-12, light one is 15-25).
-2 exercises per muscle (one light, one heavy) on that muscle’s training day
-increase either weight, or reps, or both EVERY workout (AKA “beating the logbook”).
-when reps reach top end cutoff, increase weight.
-train to failure*
^Jordan Peter’s whole program is built off this.
*if you cannot blindly trust form to not fall apart, do not train to failure. WHEN you can trust your form blindly, change failure training.
I’ve hurt my shoulder and elbow quite a few times from as little as 5lbs db curls I’m clearly an outlier, though.
Usually with 3 second negatives and 15+ reps, but yeah sometimes when the 30s are taken (or I’m being conservative in a new program).
increase either weight, or reps, or both EVERY workout (AKA “beating the logbook”).
I have to ask, how viable is consistently beating the logbook on curls if 25lbs is enough for a work set after 15 years, even with that form? I ask because I do my db curls with even stricter form than the way you described. Unless I loosen up the form, I have no clue how to beat the logbook on curls consistently haha. Only laterals are more annoying to progress on.
When you stall (not progressing after 2 sessions in a row), you swap that exercise out for something similar but different. Failure methods often recommend finding the heaviest exercises possible for the target muscle so that you have to swap them out less frequently.
^As you pointed to, some exercises are not feasible to progress on consistently for years.
^As you pointed to, some exercises are not feasible to progress on consistently for years
Do you treat these strict form DB curls with progression too? Or is beating the logbook saved for the BB curls? It just seems that you’d have to swap the strict DB curls out pretty quickly, which is why I’ve been treating them as “assistance.”
Since you don’t go over 35lbs, do you still try to actively progress in other ways like reps, TUT, etc? Or do you not focus on progression with curls and just treat them as assistance?
Is there anything innately wrong with treating lifts like curls as assistance? Kind of like how someone on 5/3/1 might aim for 30 total curl reps after the main lifts and not care about progressing session to session on the db curls. As long as they end up progressing over time (months, years, etc.), does it matter?
@T3hPwnisher Tagging you since your site was one of the first places I read about lifting, and you only do curls as assistance, right?
I don’t quite understand what the alternative would be. I’ve competed in federations where the strict curl was an event, but I’ve never competed in the strict curl personally. In my mind, any lift that isn’t the competition lift would, by default, be an assistance lift. Similarly, squats are primarily an assistance lift for me.
In general, I don’t aim to beat the logbook on just about anything I do. Since my life and training is so chaotic, my focus isn’t on progressive overLOADING: it’s on progressive overCOMING. I focus on making sure that I’m putting in full effort where I can.
Some days, I come into the gym and I’m fully rested, recovered, well fed and hydrated. I can hit some crazy lifts. Some times, I come in fatigued, injured, fasted and dry. My lifts fall apart. But so long as I’m working as hard, if not HARDER than I did in the previous workout: it was a success.
When I ran Super Squats the second time through, I tore my hamstring on the 5th workout. The next workout, I had to drop 30lbs from the previous weight I lifted. By all accounts, I did NOT beat the logbook…but I set that previous lift with 2 working hamstrings. It couldn’t be compared.
So I treat curls the same way as I do other lifts. I do a daily set of 25 with a band for the sake of health, which is a habit I picked up after I tore my left bicep, but when I’m actually “training curls”, it’s Poundstone curls with an axle, and the goal is effort. I have records on that lift that I’ll beat if the circumstances present, but this most recent workout time was short, I didn’t have time to do that, so instead I focused on making the set hurt as much as I could in the time that I had.
Many of my other lifts work the same way. The weight on the bar, the reps, the sets: theses are all just variables implemented for the sake of generating effort. Similarly to how John Meadows and Jon Andersen would aim to never repeat the same workout, I don’t concern myself with repeating the previous workout and doing it better, but just using the workout as a means to force growth.
Of all threads, nobody invited me to this one? Geez.
I haven’t read it all yet, but getting better at contracting the target muscle puts more of the load on the intended area - that’s a form of progression.
Strength, overall, is my only actual goal in the gym. I’m a competitive strongman, not a bodybuilder. And I still prefer to train biceps from a hypertrophy-oriented approach. They’re not a prime mover, so to speak, in any big lift.
Progression
I don’t track it. I just expect my arms to get bigger over time as long as I lift weights and gain weight. It’s worked so far. Direct arm work is just accessory work. I do it at the end of workouts, just to get it done. I don’t put a lot of thought into it, if I’m being honest. I don’t think it’s worth overthinking.
I’m clearly an outlier, though.