T Nation

Is HCG the Answer?

I’ve been on Test Cyp (150mg every 5 days) and my T levels are at 792, so within the normal range. Free Testosterone is not too high, but still within normal.

Anyway, my FSH and LH levels are below the normal range, which is to be expected.

What should I do to counteract this, is HCG the answer? If so, what dosage would you recommend.

I plan on discussing this with my doc, but just in case that he’s not too familiar with HCG I wanted to have some backup…

Thanks,
Pambele

Read some of the other discussions about HCG on this forum.

The standard advice is to use 250IU on the last two days before your injection. While this has been tried and seems to work, I don’t think that there was any science behind that practice.

Research last year showed that 250IU every other day (EOD) restored the intratesticular testosterone levels in men that had their LH shut down with 200mg of test/week. So that seems to be the only research based dose/response data that we have. I provided that info to my Doc and he changed my script to that. I am doing 125IU every day to see how that works. I load a .5ml insulin syringe and use that for four doses, keeping that and the vial refrigerated.

The 250IU X2/week may be all that is required to maintain the testes. In my case, my nuts were uncomfortable (probably related to my vasectomy of 5-6 years ago) and the HCG eliminated that.

I was taking 100mg test cyp/week alone and my total test was close to 900. I now inject the HCG and 14mg/.07ml of test cyp every day, mostly to get used to level hormones. From there I can try EOD and judge how that feels.

I expect that your test levels are higher than you indicated. Did you get your blood test done 2.5 days after your injection?

I don’t expect that HCG increases test levels much above what the test cyp provides, but I will find out with my next blood work. 10,000 IU cost me around $16 at Sam’s Club with a business membership. So it can be inexpensive.

HCG increased my appetite, increased dreaming, initially my sleeping was disturbed, positive change in mood. It does affect more than your nuts.

You should expect your FSH and LH to be low if you’re taking in enough exogenous T. That’s just the biological feedback system working.

HCG will NOT improve your FSH or LH levels. As a matter of fact, it will kill these levels even more.

Only something like Clomid or Novaldex has a prayer of increasing the LH and FSH. I’m not completely sure, but I don’t think clomid or novaldex is very effective at increasing LH in the presence of exogenous T but again, I think it depends on the amount of T used.

In my opinion, the only good uses for HCG are for those who go on very extended steroid cycles where the possibility of testical shrinkage could occur. It is also invaluable in a methodical approach to determining whether you have primary or secondary hypogonadism; HCG followed by blood testing can evaluate whether the nuts are really working (if they are, then low testosterone is caused by low LH…this is where the Clomid comes in. If T does not rise appreciably with HCG injection, then you need to go on TRT).

[quote]Pambele wrote:
I’ve been on Test Cyp (150mg every 5 days) and my T levels are at 792, so within the normal range. Free Testosterone is not too high, but still within normal.

Anyway, my FSH and LH levels are below the normal range, which is to be expected.

What should I do to counteract this, is HCG the answer? If so, what dosage would you recommend.

I plan on discussing this with my doc, but just in case that he’s not too familiar with HCG I wanted to have some backup.

Thanks,
Pambele[/quote]

Well, I don’t have much to say other than to state the obvious: two completely opposed views on the use of HCG. More confusion for my mortal brain.

Everything that I write is in the context of HRT which is a long term or for life therapy.

The other post stated: “In my opinion, the only good uses for HCG are for those who go on very extended steroid cycles where the possibility of testicular shrinkage could occur.”

So I think that there really is no disagreement… but distracting information. The info that comes with the HCG states that it’s alpha sub-unit is essentially identical to LH and FSH.

So when the other post states: “HCG will NOT improve your FSH or LH levels. As a matter of fact, it will kill these levels even more.” … do not worry about that, taking HCG will functionally replace FSH and LH.

Go for the HCG and leave the confusion behind, it is what you need if you are on long term test. I assume that your test is long term HRT as a doctor is involved.

The original poster indicated he was concerned about his low levels of FSH and LH. I only offered what I knew of with respect to trying to increase these hormones.

You are right: HCG is basically an analog of LH and FSH. It will have the same function as these two hormones with the end result of the testes producing more Testosterone.

And, I think you are right that if you have been diagonosed (correctly) that you are Testosterone deficient because of lack of LH, then HCG with testosterone therapy will keep your nuts full and while your test is up.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Everything that I write is in the context of HRT which is a long term or for life therapy.

The other post stated: “In my opinion, the only good uses for HCG are for those who go on very extended steroid cycles where the possibility of testicular shrinkage could occur.”

So I think that there really is no disagreement… but distracting information. The info that comes with the HCG states that it’s alpha sub-unit is essentially identical to LH and FSH.

So when the other post states: “HCG will NOT improve your FSH or LH levels. As a matter of fact, it will kill these levels even more.” … do not worry about that, taking HCG will functionally replace FSH and LH.

Go for the HCG and leave the confusion behind, it is what you need if you are on long term test. I assume that your test is long term HRT as a doctor is involved.[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

I should have specified that I am on HRT (due to low sex drive).

[quote]Pambele wrote:
Thanks for the clarification guys.

I should have specified that I am on HRT (due to low sex drive).

[/quote]

That seems like a heavy dose for HRT. I take 100mg/week vs your 210/week. I would have expected your T levels to be much higher. Estrogen under control? It is my understanding that as estrogen increases, the body creates more SHBG and that then absorbs T and E, with the result that free T goes down and bound T goes up. But if that is happening, then total T should still be high. Perhaps your T levels are low because the timing of the blood draw was off.

The above E and SHBG response looks like a possible explanation for the transient spike and decline in libido. The T goes up, E starts to climb, SHBG starts to increase and kill free T. During that time, things can be very good then its lost.

I am on 200 mg of Cyp/week. I have very high libido, but my mood is crappy and my Test has never been above 440 ng/dl. Its now 260. I’ve been on TRT for over a year, going from the gels to the shots now. Will HCG help me?

Any ideas about WTF goes on here greatly appreciated.

From my reading of this link, HCG increases a man’s fertility. I’m 52, have 3 kids, and am pretty much done in the diaper-changing game. My wife is quite a bit younger so I’m leery of this.

http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?doc_id=3524&nbr=2750

Responses to HCG will be different. I see reports that it improves mood and it definitely did that for me. I would really not want to give it up. The nice thing is how inexpensive it is at Sam’s Club… around $16 for 10K units.

The alternative to no HCG is shrunk nuts and the loss of LH etc. Some claim that fertility and self image are the only issues. But after noting how HCG changed my mood, I think that the absence of these hormones may be a negative thing, and perhaps replacement with HCG has some merit above and beyond fertility and reserving the size of one’s nuts.

My wife is also concerned about smaller nuts as she does like a good hand full of nuts. I am 57… she is almost 39 :wink:

It also triggered an increase in appetite for me. Part of that was probably going to happen anyways with my training. I don’t train much and probably not very well, but I have put on a lot of muscle and look and feel better for it. But for a few years I have been eating little and been inactive. This kept my weight static, but muscle was lost and BF increased. Now I have to get into the habit of eating more. After a good meal, lately I now have a strong hunger a few hours after. Yesterday I got a tub of whey protein and this seems like something I will use and enjoy.

If you do not do HCG, you cannot count on shooting blanks… you will not have a sperm count of zero and babies do happen.

As to why one can take higher amounts of T and have mid or low blood levels… I don’t know what to think… does not make any sense at all to me.

Do not pay attention to the doses that are talked about in increasing a man’s firtility. Those doses can be way more than you want for HRT. Some of the doses discussed for PCT are too high as well.

This indeed is very strange, but my simpleton mind can only conjure up the following: could the exogenous Test you are taking being converted to estrodiol or DHT at a faster rate? IF this is the case (only way to find out is to check the estrogen and DHT levels along with your Test)anti-aromatase may be the answer.

Mood being crappy can sometimes be related to higher than normal (for you) estrogen levels. Just my 2 cents.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I am on 200 mg of Cyp/week. I have very high libido, but my mood is crappy and my Test has never been above 440 ng/dl. Its now 260. I’ve been on TRT for over a year, going from the gels to the shots now. Will HCG help me?

Any ideas about WTF goes on here greatly appreciated.[/quote]

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
This indeed is very strange, but my simpleton mind can only conjure up the following: could the exogenous Test you are taking being converted to estrodiol or DHT at a faster rate? IF this is the case (only way to find out is to check the estrogen and DHT levels along with your Test)anti-aromatase may be the answer.

Mood being crappy can sometimes be related to higher than normal (for you) estrogen levels. Just my 2 cents.

Headhunter wrote:
I am on 200 mg of Cyp/week. I have very high libido, but my mood is crappy and my Test has never been above 440 ng/dl. Its now 260. I’ve been on TRT for over a year, going from the gels to the shots now. Will HCG help me?

Any ideas about WTF goes on here greatly appreciated.

[/quote]

Thanks, I will suggest these to the urologist.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I am on 200 mg of Cyp/week. I have very high libido, but my mood is crappy and my Test has never been above 440 ng/dl. Its now 260. I’ve been on TRT for over a year, going from the gels to the shots now. Will HCG help me?

Any ideas about WTF goes on here greatly appreciated.[/quote]

Are you guys getting your Estradiol monitored as well? Taking such high amounts of T guarantees that some will aromatize into Estrogen. Which explains the crappy feeling. 200mg TCyp per week is a lot, and will take you to a supraphysiological level. Your Estrogens will go up too. HCG will not help that. You should get your Testosterone (Total, Free & Weakly bound), SHBG, DHT, and Estradiol (aka E2, get the highly sensitive test done). Then you can look at a more complete picture of your levels and go from there.

I take a 5% testosterone cream and 100IU hCG everyday, the hCG is only to keep my balls from shrinking as it is an LH analog (not FSH) and tricks the balls even though the pituitary is no longer sending out the signal.

BD

[quote]I take a 5% testosterone cream and 100IU hCG everyday
BD[/quote]

I was on 125mg HCG ED for a while with 7mg of test cyp ED for a while, just to see what dead flat levels were like. I have switched to 250 HCG and 14mg test cyp EOD and so far it seems better. My libido is up. So some variability might be better than none. So you might try EOD with your HCG and see how that is for you.

I hope this +ve change is sustainable for me.

[quote]KSman wrote:
I take a 5% testosterone cream and 100IU hCG everyday
BD

I was on 125mg HCG ED for a while with 7mg of test cyp ED for a while, just to see what dead flat levels were like. I have switched to 250 HCG and 14mg test cyp EOD and so far it seems better. My libido is up. So some variability might be better than none. So you might try EOD with your HCG and see how that is for you.

I hope this +ve change is sustainable for me.

[/quote]

How does 7mg or 14mg Tcyp compare a packet of 1% 5g Androgel, do you know? The think about QD hCG is I can remember it as a habit. But, if you think QOD will make an improvement, I suppose I can try 200IU QOD for a while.

Thanks. I appreciate your insight as always.

BD

[quote]How does 7mg or 14mg Tcyp compare a packet of 1% 5g Androgel, do you know? The think about QD hCG is I can remember it as a habit. But, if you think QOD will make an improvement, I suppose I can try 200IU QOD for a while.

Thanks. I appreciate your insight as always.

BD[/quote]

7 mg of test cyp will release about 5mg of testosterone. So the doses are equivalent in that regard. But I do see a lot of post about 5mg of Androgel not doing the job… Test cyp is time release in nature. Doing 10mg androgel EOD certainly would not appear to have any justification. Trying that would probably prove the point.

More on dosing: With injectables, you know what gets delivered. With trans-dermals, the amount delivered is variable.

HCG EOD may or not make any difference for others. But its worth a try and only you can feel if its different. My age management accredted Dr admits that dosing is a guessing game. They start on “starter doses” and then see what the blood work says and what the patient reports.

Not quite sure this is right, or else I’m misunderstanding what you are posting.

Test cyp has a half life of about 7 days (give or take a day here or there). That means a measily 7 mg of test cyp in one day would deliver 7/2 = 3.5 mg of test over the WEEK.

To average 5mg to 7mg of Test a day from Test Cyp injections, you have to take somewhere around 7x7x2 = 98 mg or about 100 mg/week. Only then will you get roughly an average of 7 mg/day.

I also think you meant “5 grams” of Androgel instead of “5 mg” in your post.

I agree, your usage and what your doc gives you is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[quote]KSman wrote:

7 mg of test cyp will release about 5mg of testosterone. So the doses are equivalent in that regard. But I do see a lot of post about 5mg of Androgel not doing the job… Test cyp is time release in nature. Doing 10mg androgel EOD certainly would not appear to have any justification. Trying that would probably prove the point.

More on dosing: With injectables, you know what gets delivered. With trans-dermals, the amount delivered is variable.

HCG EOD may or not make any difference for others. But its worth a try and only you can feel if its different. My age management accredted Dr admits that dosing is a guessing game. They start on “starter doses” and then see what the blood work says and what the patient reports.

[/quote]

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Not quite sure this is right, or else I’m misunderstanding what you are posting.

Test cyp has a half life of about 7 days (give or take a day here or there). That means a measily 7 mg of test cyp in one day would deliver 7/2 = 3.5 mg of test over the WEEK.

To average 5mg to 7mg of Test a day from Test Cyp injections, you have to take somewhere around 7x7x2 = 98 mg or about 100 mg/week. Only then will you get roughly an average of 7 mg/day.

I also think you meant “5 grams” of Androgel instead of “5 mg” in your post.

I agree, your usage and what your doc gives you is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[/quote]

OK, sorry, and thanks for catching my errors!

I was injecting .07ml/14mg ED then changed to .14ml/28mg EOD test cyp 200mg/ml. Which is basically 100mg/week that I was originally perscribed.

I am really feeling better with the EOD. I guess if this lasts, there is something to recommend. All of this started as I found the 100mg in one injection per week to have an effect for 1 or 2 days, or perhaps none, then down for the rest of the week.

The HCG has been a great change, perhaps because of the T that it stimulates added to the 100mg/week injected.

ksman,

Do you do the hcg and T on the same days with your EOD regimen, or do you alternate hcg on one day, T on the next, etc?

Thanks,
BD