Is Arguing Really Worth It?

I have been trying to decide if it is truely worth argueing politics with people… When it comes down to it, most if not everything people believe in the relm of politics is similiar to religion, they wont listen to anything you say… so, is it really worth it? Thoughts?

If you discuss it you may not accomplish anything. If you don’t you definitely won’t. Besides, it’s fun. If it stresses you out, move on. I don’t mean “you” specifically, just anyone. There are plenty of people who can’t hack it in here. So they leave. I enjoy for the most part so long as it doesn’t break down into an insult fest, then nothing is truly better.

I’ve changed my religious and political opinions over the years - I have been fortunate enough to be exposed to people who thought and expressed themselves clearly and respectfully, even lovingly. Slowly I came around to reversals on many things. I try to be that person to others. But, yeah, it’s hard. Especially when someone’s yelling in your face - which I get a lot. Almost impossible, really.

In a sense, strictly speaking, one never really convinces another person of anything, especially not in one fell swoop - more likely, you populate their minds with new thoughts and bits of information and, ultimately, and slowly, they convince themselves.

So we have to keep trying. Just think of how much worse things would be if people gave up on each other in the past; if our founding fathers gave up on each other and the citizenry? The responsibility we are heir to is truly immense.

The truth of things is of supreme importance; think of yourself as a soldier who is continually pursuing, defending and articulating the truth. Because that’s what you are.

Even if you don’t agree with someone you might learn something which is a plus…if you believe them of course.

Exceptions…that crazy religeous family the Westboros. I have nothing to learn from them. I typed in to google “crazy religeous family” and second line there they were. For those interested, the first line was the idiot who told the cops his kid is in a balloon floating away.

Argumentation is all about exposing logically based truth to the light of day.

It is a skill that must be learned like any other. It requires precise language and deductive reasoning.
Arguments must be logically consistent and within the realm of possible experience or else they will not be effective at swaying an opponent.

It is hard enough to change people’s minds with fact but it is even harder to change people’s minds with emotive gesticulating. In fact, I use this as a criteria for whom I consider intelligent and whom I do not. People who blindly accept the validity of their emotions over plain sight are not worth my time of day.

Even if one happens to lay out an argument as logically as possible based completely on premises that are true does not mean that the people who are exposed to this argument will agree with the conclusion.

Do not worry about these people. If they are exposed to correct ideas long enough they may in fact jump on the bandwagon.

The value of argumentation is that it helps us deal with our own beliefs in a logically consistent manner; not that we may or may not change someone else’s mind. In this respect if we lay out a logically consistent argument we can deal with the premises of these argument in a philosophical manner. Often the validity of an argument is not about the logic of the deductive reasoning contained therein but rather the truth of the premises themselves. Once we can expose those we are on a better course to philosophical understanding.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Often the validity of an argument is not about the logic of the deductive reasoning contained therein but rather the truth of the premises themselves. Once we can expose those we are on a better course to philosophical understanding.[/quote]
“Relativity” is a good read and does a pretty good job of explaining this. A logical argument is only as good as the axioms it is built on. I think part of the problem is that we are conditioned to memorize axioms, not understand or question them.

There’s a reason people tend to leave politics and religion out of discussions. There is no objective way to prove people wrong or to prove yourself right, and even if there were, people are unlikely to consider evidence that contradicts deeply held values and beliefs.

That’s why I rarely participate in discussions on this forum any more.

Do it for your own benefit. Sometimes the process of constructively discussing issues can help clarify your own beliefs. But don’t try to convince others; in most cases, you’re just wasting your breath.

[quote]forlife wrote:
There’s a reason people tend to leave politics and religion out of discussions. There is no objective way to prove people wrong or to prove yourself right, and even if there were, people are unlikely to consider evidence that contradicts deeply held values and beliefs.
[/quote]

Deep down religion and politics are the only thing people really want to talk about.

Besides, it is not always about proving oneself right but rather that there is a possibility of it and that given this possibility there are consequences.

I enjoy discussing politics myself, my main intent is not to change their opinion (but that’s nice if that happens, to know that I have given them another perspective). It really just depends on how open-minded someone is.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Deep down religion and politics are the only thing people really want to talk about.

Besides, it is not always about proving oneself right but rather that there is a possibility of it and that given this possibility there are consequences.[/quote]

I like this quote from Mark Twain:

I think it’s helpful for people to have religious/political discussions to challenge and define their own beliefs, rather than blindly accepting what has been handed to them by others.

Few do though. Far more often, they lazily adopt second hand beliefs, and spend their energy promoting them as if they were their own.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I enjoy discussing politics myself, my main intent is not to change their opinion (but that’s nice if that happens, to know that I have given them another perspective). It really just depends on how open-minded someone is.[/quote]

It is a myth that one needs an open mind to gain understanding. Perhaps an open mind to the possibility of learning but after that one’s mind must be a steel trap.

And reason must be the gate keeper.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I enjoy discussing politics myself, my main intent is not to change their opinion (but that’s nice if that happens, to know that I have given them another perspective). It really just depends on how open-minded someone is.[/quote]

It is a myth that one needs an open mind to gain understanding. Perhaps an open mind to the possibility of learning but after that one’s mind must be a steel trap.

And reason must be the gate keeper.[/quote]

A so-called “open mind” is actually an hindrance to learning. One can’t change one’s mind, one can’t even think, if it’s vacuously open.

“An open mind is really a mark of foolishness, like an open mouth. Mouths and minds were made to shut; they were made to open only in order to shut.”

“The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”

^^ both by G.K. Chesterton

I love it when people tell me I am “closed minded”. I usually just reply that they haven’t offered any reason for me to “open it”.

If the soundness of one’s argument is not enough to convince an audience then pointing out their own closed mindedness to them won’t work either.

Usually people want you to have an open mind only when when considering the merit of their ideas while having you close it to the possibility of anything else.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:
…bunch of argumentative assholes…[/quote]

only when I know I am right!

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