T Nation

Is America Dying?

Is the election of someone like BHO a symptom of a dying country? When putting the resumes of the 2 candidates side by side, one is struck by the thinness and sheer chicanery of the O’bama ticket. Yet he is the overwhelming choice.

"Bettors on the Dublin-based Intrade’s political futures market believe Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate, will prevail in all the states won by party nominee John Kerry in 2004, in addition to picking up other previously Republican strongholds such as Nevada and Missouri. Arizona Senator John McCain, the Republican nominee, would pick up 174 Electoral votes, winning states such as Texas, Indiana and West Virginia.

As the economic crisis dominates the presidential campaign, Obama, an Illinois senator, has surged in national polls over McCain. Obama has opened a 10 percentage-point lead over McCain, 53 percent to 43 percent, among likely voters nationally in a Washington Post-ABC News poll taken Oct. 8-11. That’s up from a 4 point lead in a Post-ABC poll taken at the end of September."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aN6KgfzBrYwE&refer=home

Yes but not for the reasons you listed above, the country will be dying if Mcain is elected as well. Only we the people can bail us out now, unfortunately, there are very few who are attempting to do anything. Most don’t know or don’t care.

V

No.

Our country went through dark times in the 30’s and came back stronger in the late 40’s and 50’s. The turmoil in the late 60’s and 70’s was followed by prosperity in the 80’s and 90’s.

But if you can’t be optimistic, at least stop freaking out. No one likes a panicky bitch.

Edit: illiteracy

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Yes but not for the reasons you listed above, the country will be dying if Mcain is elected as well. Only we the people can bail us out now, unfortunately, there are very few who are attempting to do anything. Most don’t know or don’t care.

V[/quote]

Are you one of the very few who is attempting to do something? If so, what are you doing to bail us out?

[quote]SinisterMinister wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Yes but not for the reasons you listed above, the country will be dying if Mcain is elected as well. Only we the people can bail us out now, unfortunately, there are very few who are attempting to do anything. Most don’t know or don’t care.

V

Are you one of the very few who is attempting to do something? If so, what are you doing to bail us out?

[/quote]

I’m researching Local, State and Federal Lawmakers who will do thier job based on what the constitution calls for, not what special interests and thier own egos call for. I will never again vote for someone who does not hold this principal as thier highest standard. I donate to thier campaigns and talk to people about the issues we are dealing with.

I try to Help other people understand that the power does indeed rest with us, but that we need to use it wisely, like not voting for either Mcain or Obama this time around. Anyone who votes for either, whatever small victories they think they have won, are hurting the country overall, they are just given a few bonuses so it isn’t quite as bad for them.

The prosperity will come back to this country when a majority of Americans get fed up and vote for someone who will not lie cheat and steal. Also it doesn’t take one man in one election, it has to be every time we pull a lever at any level, research, find out who you are voting for and find out what kind of person they are. Don’t focus on 30 second soundbites, they mean nothing. Focus on what they have done their entire life.
Other than that there really isn’t much else I can do.

V

BHO talks about distributing the wealth. So, if you earned your wealth, he will now distribute it, all in the interest of fairness, don’t you know…

How does one distribute the wealth? Well, first you have to take some of it away from the ones who actually produce and give it to those who produce nothing. Then secondly, since few people want to give away what they worked for, you have to create a powerful instrument for takng away the wealth. We call these innocuous names lke ‘IRS’ or ‘Fannie Mae’.

Thirdly, you then have to firmly believe that those who got robbed…er…‘redistributed’…won’t mind at all that someone took away their property that they worked for. No, they would never mind such a thing, would they Barack?

Pathetic…

What amazes me is this sense of nostalgia that people have for a bygone era that never existed.

Politics in a democracy will always be corrupt. Very corrupt. That’s the way it goes. You can do your best to fight it, just like the prosecuter’s office might (if they’re not corrupt themselves), but in the end, you’ll always be voting for someone with skeletons in their closet.

V- When you say that you’re not going to vote for a politician that doesn’t hold his principle as his highest standard, it makes me think that you’re done voting. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. I’m almost done myself.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
What amazes me is this sense of nostalgia that people have for a bygone era that never existed.

Politics in a democracy will always be corrupt. Very corrupt. That’s the way it goes. You can do your best to fight it, just like the prosecuter’s office might (if they’re not corrupt themselves), but in the end, you’ll always be voting for someone with skeletons in their closet.

V- When you say that you’re not going to vote for a politician that doesn’t hold his principle as his highest standard, it makes me think that you’re done voting. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. I’m almost done myself.[/quote]

No the reason poloticians have become so corrupt is because no matter how bad they do thier jobs, people keep voting them back into office. If more people like me voted for people who do a good job, as defined by abiding by thier poweer given to them by the people through the constitution, then they can get re-elected. the first time they abuse thier power, they get voted out. Pretty soon you create an atmosphere where poloticians want the good life of where they are, so they don’t fuck with the people because they know the people will kick thier asses out.

The problem is knowledge, Nearly every american on the street couldn’t tell you how many articles there are in the constitution. They couldn’t tell you when it was ratified or how many amendments there are. Let alone any of the context of it. Someone who owns a gun might know that the second amendment is about guns, someone who is a hippy might now that the first amendment deals with free speech.

But nobody know that almost every single person in the congress and senate vote on bills that are inconstitutional. They simply do not have the authority to do the things they do. They would need to amend the constitution, but they just do it anyways, cause no one even knows what the constitution says anymore, at least not the masses who vote them into office.

I have started reading the constitution myself, not some professors interpretation of it either, I am an intelligent human being, I can read and decide what the thing says myself. Anyways, it will work, but people like you and rainjack who both want the same things, need to stop playing thier game, it’s not about democrat or republican, they are both corrupt orginazations who no longer stand for what they were founded on. We need new political parties that will focus on the constitution, and abiding by it.

They are 2 parties already in existance that do this, so there is even some choice to go along with your following the constitution. People need to stop saying can’t won’t or other self limiting or self defeating statements. You are the problem because you won’t take the step, stop saying won’t, can’t or shouldn’t and join me in telling people can and will. We are the future, we hold the power.

V

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
What amazes me is this sense of nostalgia that people have for a bygone era that never existed.

Politics in a democracy will always be corrupt. Very corrupt. That’s the way it goes. You can do your best to fight it, just like the prosecuter’s office might (if they’re not corrupt themselves), but in the end, you’ll always be voting for someone with skeletons in their closet.

V- When you say that you’re not going to vote for a politician that doesn’t hold his principle as his highest standard, it makes me think that you’re done voting. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. I’m almost done myself.[/quote]

It all goes back to an absence of morality. Since altruism is unnatural and that’s the code we equate with morality, then people live with no/little morality. No one can practice it.

Maybe that was the goal all along…

Listen Veg, I used to think the way you think; I was also 18 and mostly a socialist.

You can start your new political parties, and they will become corrupt too. Money and power are too alluring to people. The best you can do is manage that inevitable corruption within the current system.

Maybe it’s because I’m from New Jersey, and political corruption is a given here- everyone from the school boards to the governor has been corrupt. But I doubt it- you see scandals everywhere.

And I hate to tell you, but the people of America will never pay all that much attention to politics. Most people are not interested, and are not educated (in the nature of politics). That’s not going to change. They want to lead their regular lives, do their everyday things, and be left alone.

It’s great that you’re educating yourself on politics, and learning things about the way the system works. However, don’t go into the lunatic fringe- you’ll get nowhere. The best thing you can is to observe what happens, make light of it, and work for changes within the given system.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
What amazes me is this sense of nostalgia that people have for a bygone era that never existed.

Politics in a democracy will always be corrupt. Very corrupt. That’s the way it goes. You can do your best to fight it, just like the prosecuter’s office might (if they’re not corrupt themselves), but in the end, you’ll always be voting for someone with skeletons in their closet.

V- When you say that you’re not going to vote for a politician that doesn’t hold his principle as his highest standard, it makes me think that you’re done voting. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. I’m almost done myself.

It all goes back to an absence of morality. Since altruism is unnatural and that’s the code we equate with morality, then people live with no/little morality. No one can practice it.

Maybe that was the goal all along…
[/quote]

Please. Take your Ayn Rand babble elsewhere. No one cares.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
… but people like you and rainjack who both want the same things…
[/quote]

Hell yeah we both want the same things - my dollars. I want to keep them, and Irish wants the new baby jesus to take them from me and give them to him so Irish can buy more jeager and porn.

Sorry, Vegita - but Irish doesn’t want anything but a freebie. If not for him, then for others like him.

Why work hard when it’s easier to vote democrat?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Listen Veg, I used to think the way you think; I was also 18 and mostly a socialist.

You can start your new political parties, and they will become corrupt too. Money and power are too alluring to people. The best you can do is manage that inevitable corruption within the current system.

Maybe it’s because I’m from New Jersey, and political corruption is a given here- everyone from the school boards to the governor has been corrupt. But I doubt it- you see scandals everywhere.

And I hate to tell you, but the people of America will never pay all that much attention to politics. Most people are not interested, and are not educated (in the nature of politics). That’s not going to change. They want to lead their regular lives, do their everyday things, and be left alone.

It’s great that you’re educating yourself on politics, and learning things about the way the system works. However, don’t go into the lunatic fringe- you’ll get nowhere. The best thing you can is to observe what happens, make light of it, and work for changes within the given system.

[/quote]

It’s truly sad when following the constitution is considered the “lunatic Fringe”. Don’t you see what the system has done to you? My ideas are not far fetched or out of reach. I need people like you, no we the people need people like you, who have the ability to get it, to do more than sit on the sidelines and accept the status quo. I hate to keep bringing him up, but Ron Paul has not been corrupted by power, he got his nickname Dr. No, for exactly that reason, it is not far fetched to think that there are people out there who hold thier own morals, and thier oath of office to be thier defining characteristics. We truly are defeated if people like yourself continue to have apathy towards a corrupt system. The founders set this sytem up but they envisioned a place where people understood that they could not sit on the sidelines. If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. There is no sitting this out, if you don’t act, then you defacto vote for the power elite to do whatever they see fit. We have to hold our representative government accountable, and that means being knowledgable enough about the system of government (the constitution is the blueprint) to reward them for being good politicians, or to fire them if they are not good politicians.

This is simple stuff, yet the system has brainwashed people into being comfortable and thinking they can do nothing but accept things the way they are. Also you bring age into the equation now? when you were 18 you used to think like I did? Is that supposed to mean my way of thinking is somehow only held by young and nieve people? I’m 29, and have been a regular follower of politics since I was 18. It seems that it is possible to evolve from the old views I held, that of the Neo-Cons, or new conservatives, to that of the Paloe-Cons, or old school conservatives. I’m not sure why you de-volved, from a position of understanding to one of sticking your head in the sand, but it surley is dissapointing.

V

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
… but people like you and rainjack who both want the same things…

Hell yeah we both want the same things - my dollars. I want to keep them, and Irish wants the new baby jesus to take them from me and give them to him so Irish can buy more jeager and porn.

Sorry, Vegita - but Irish doesn’t want anything but a freebie. If not for him, then for others like him.

[/quote]

I don’t want to turn this into another thread with you and me insulting each other. Not that I mind, but just not on this thread.

Give credit where its due. We have very different views on the way the government should be run. If someone didn’t want to take us at our word, there are bigger names in politics and history that think the same way.

I forgot where I was going with this post, but this point remains anyway.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
… but people like you and rainjack who both want the same things…

Hell yeah we both want the same things - my dollars. I want to keep them, and Irish wants the new baby jesus to take them from me and give them to him so Irish can buy more jeager and porn.

Sorry, Vegita - but Irish doesn’t want anything but a freebie. If not for him, then for others like him.

I don’t want to turn this into another thread with you and me insulting each other. Not that I mind, but just not on this thread.

Give credit where its due. We have very different views on the way the government should be run. If someone didn’t want to take us at our word, there are bigger names in politics and history that think the same way.

I forgot where I was going with this post, but this point remains anyway.[/quote]

Sounds like you ran out of good insults. Hah!

But seriously, the reason why it isn’t just you think your way and I think mine is pretty simple. A conservative person think they know best for themself, a liberal thinks they know best for everyone else. The liberal point of view is confrontational by nature. RJ doesn’t care what you do with your money, but you care what RJ does with his money.

[quote]Vegita wrote:

It’s truly sad when following the constitution is considered the “lunatic Fringe”. Don’t you see what the system has done to you? My ideas are not far fetched or out of reach. I need people like you, no we the people need people like you, who have the ability to get it, to do more than sit on the sidelines and accept the status quo. I hate to keep bringing him up, but Ron Paul has not been corrupted by power, he got his nickname Dr. No, for exactly that reason, it is not far fetched to think that there are people out there who hold thier own morals, and thier oath of office to be thier defining characteristics. We truly are defeated if people like yourself continue to have apathy towards a corrupt system. The founders set this sytem up but they envisioned a place where people understood that they could not sit on the sidelines. If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. There is no sitting this out, if you don’t act, then you defacto vote for the power elite to do whatever they see fit. We have to hold our representative government accountable, and that means being knowledgable enough about the system of government (the constitution is the blueprint) to reward them for being good politicians, or to fire them if they are not good politicians.
[/quote]

I’m not doubting what you’re saying. But like I said, it sounds nice but will never happen.

What you are asking people to do is to hold power and not abuse it. That’s what you’re saying. What I am telling you is that there is no way in hell that this will ever happen.

I want you to find one society where the people who lead are truly concerned only with the welfare of those under them. The only ones that I can think of are some tribes of Native Americans and possibly the peoples that live with a village or clan based philosophy (which is about as close to Marxism as you’re going to find).

Otherwise, any modern society is corrupted. Some times are worse than others, and purging fires are to be expected (and do happen), but the great majority of the time those in power will always be subject to persuasion by a multitude of ways.

It’s the way people are. No vote or revolution is going to change the way people are wired. Greed and self-preservation are always going to be motivating factors. Sometimes they’ll be used for good, sometimes bad. But to make it so black and white like you are is, well, ignorant and naive.

[quote]
This is simple stuff, yet the system has brainwashed people into being comfortable and thinking they can do nothing but accept things the way they are. Also you bring age into the equation now? when you were 18 you used to think like I did? Is that supposed to mean my way of thinking is somehow only held by young and nieve people? I’m 29, and have been a regular follower of politics since I was 18. It seems that it is possible to evolve from the old views I held, that of the Neo-Cons, or new conservatives, to that of the Paloe-Cons, or old school conservatives. I’m not sure why you de-volved, from a position of understanding to one of sticking your head in the sand, but it surley is dissapointing.

V[/quote]

I’m actually wondering how you forgot what people are like.

I brought age into it because at 18, you don’t know so much about how the world works. You don’t understand the basics of how countries are formed, how they’re run, how the ladder works from local to state to Federal government, and how special interests can affect all of those. You don’t realize the way history flows, and you’re not as quick to understand the basic tenets of humanity.

What it comes down to is that people will always do what saves their own skin. If that means killing their own cousin to save their life (like the Mafia), if that means throwing someone under the bus for a crime (Congress style), if that means narcing out the guy that sold you the drugs like a street snitch, people will always save their own skins first, and worry about you later.

People are oppurtunistic and self-preserving. They will kick you when you’re down, and turn on you in a second. This world is a hard one. Is there a place for idealists? Yes. But will you ever have a world, or a government that is run by them? No.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
… but people like you and rainjack who both want the same things…

Hell yeah we both want the same things - my dollars. I want to keep them, and Irish wants the new baby jesus to take them from me and give them to him so Irish can buy more jeager and porn.

Sorry, Vegita - but Irish doesn’t want anything but a freebie. If not for him, then for others like him.

I don’t want to turn this into another thread with you and me insulting each other. Not that I mind, but just not on this thread.

Give credit where its due. We have very different views on the way the government should be run. If someone didn’t want to take us at our word, there are bigger names in politics and history that think the same way.

I forgot where I was going with this post, but this point remains anyway.

Sounds like you ran out of good insults. Hah!

But seriously, the reason why it isn’t just you think your way and I think mine is pretty simple. A conservative person think they know best for themself, a liberal thinks they know best for everyone else. The liberal point of view is confrontational by nature. RJ doesn’t care what you do with your money, but you care what RJ does with his money.[/quote]

But seriously, no. That’s more partisan garbage. You read that shit off of a chain email? Was it the same one that said Obama was the antichrist?

Shut up. Smarter people are talking.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
… but people like you and rainjack who both want the same things…

Hell yeah we both want the same things - my dollars. I want to keep them, and Irish wants the new baby jesus to take them from me and give them to him so Irish can buy more jeager and porn.

Sorry, Vegita - but Irish doesn’t want anything but a freebie. If not for him, then for others like him.

I don’t want to turn this into another thread with you and me insulting each other. Not that I mind, but just not on this thread.

Give credit where its due. We have very different views on the way the government should be run. If someone didn’t want to take us at our word, there are bigger names in politics and history that think the same way.

I forgot where I was going with this post, but this point remains anyway.

Sounds like you ran out of good insults. Hah!

But seriously, the reason why it isn’t just you think your way and I think mine is pretty simple. A conservative person think they know best for themself, a liberal thinks they know best for everyone else. The liberal point of view is confrontational by nature. RJ doesn’t care what you do with your money, but you care what RJ does with his money.

But seriously, no. That’s more partisan garbage. You read that shit off of a chain email? Was it the same one that said Obama was the antichrist?

Shut up. Smarter people are talking.[/quote]

That’s better.

No, I made it up all on my own. I like how your argument is just, “that’s garbage”, and actual coherent thought processes elude you.

What I said was, It’s imperialism vs. isolationism on an individual level, they cannot peacefully co-exist.

Edit: Although, I did try and say it in a way to get some creative name calling juices going for you.

I think THE ONION has it about right…


Bush Calls For Panic

OCTOBER 15, 2008 | ISSUE 44�?�42

WASHINGTON�??In a nationally televised address to the American people Wednesday night, President Bush called upon every man, woman, and child to spiral uncontrollably downward into complete and utter panic.

President Bush addresses the nation shortly before shaving his head and soaking the Oval Office in his own urine.

Speaking from the Oval Office, Bush assured citizens that in these times of great uncertainty, the best and only course of action is to come under the throes of a sudden, overwhelming fear marked by hysterical or irrational behavior.

“My fellow Americans, the time for running aimlessly through streets while shrieking and waving our arms above our heads is now,” Bush said. “I understand that many of you are worried about your economic future and our situation overseas, and you have every right to be. Yet there is only one thing we as a nation can do in times like these: give up all hope and devolve into a lawless, post-apocalyptic, every-man-for-himself society.”

“For those of you who have remained resolute in your belief that things will turn around eventually, I urge you to close your eyes, take shallow rapid breaths, and begin freaking out immediately,” Bush added. “At this point, anyone who isn’t scared to death needs to wake the fuck up�??because we’re screwed here.”

The Department of Homeland Security’s website provides information for Americans not currently losing their shit.

The president then picked up the telephone from his desk and hurled it through the Oval Office window.

During the address, Bush laid out a historic five-point plan for panic that he hopes will help the American people fall apart as quickly as possible. The plan�??which many are calling Bush’s most well-thought-out proposal to date�??calls for citizens to abandon their daily routines entirely, and engage in a weeklong period of bloodcurdling screaming, arm flailing, dry heaving, and gnawing on one’s fingers while rocking back and forth in alternating bouts of maniacal laughter and gentle sobbing.

Under the new bill, Americans are also advised to withdraw all their money from U.S. banks and the stock market, place it in a Maxwell House coffee tin, and bury it in a safe place in their backyard. In addition, Bush has urged the legalization of Americans trampling one another in a mad rush to compete for the nation’s dwindling resources, and proposed allocating $3 billion toward a program that would give every citizen a gun and a bottle of 140-proof whiskey.

The final part of the plan calls for the immediate release of all convicted felons and death-row inmates from the nation’s prisons.

Immediately after Congress approves his plan, the president said he will order multiple B-2 stealth bombers to fly over America’s cities at low altitude. The resulting sonic boom, Bush said, will set off all car alarms and cause all babies to cry uncontrollably, which he believes will promote a real sense of chaos throughout the nation. In addition, Bush intends to release 50 live cobras into the Senate chamber.

“I realize this is a difficult vote for members of Congress, but at this critical time in our nation’s history, it is imperative that we not sit back and pretend like everything is fine, because everything’s not fine, it’s just not,” Bush said. “Even if Congress fails to act, I still intend to do what is right and lead this country into mass hysteria by acting outside the framework of the U.S. Constitution, overriding the entire democratic process, and setting the Lincoln Memorial on fire.”

Early reactions on Capitol Hill to Bush’s call for panic have thus far been positive. Leading House Republicans and Democrats said they appreciate the president’s candor, and will encourage their constituents to comply with Bush’s request to “find something and smash it with all of their strength.”

“For most of the day tomorrow, I intend to do my part by remaining in my boarded-up home and getting worked up about our standing in the world,” Pacoima, CA resident Harold Miller said. “And then at night, I plan to lie awake in my bed and be scared to death about the loss of my job, pension, and retirement fund. Then I plan to run out into the streets in my bathrobe and shout that the End of Days is coming.”

Bush told Americans that if at any point they catch themselves feeling even slightly at ease, they should remind themselves that, in the end, everything is going to be completely fucked.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/bush_calls_for_panic