T Nation

Iraq


#1

What are you views on the war in Iraq?


#2

There's a war!!!!


#3

There's a war?!?!

I'm Ron Burgundy?

sorry, my useless contribution ends...now


#4

e-hater is tom cruise.

pox loves barak obama.

I still don't know who this vroom character is.

lumpy is terrymcaullife.

I miss alshades.

LiftusMaximus will type something about history that will make my eyes ache.

Marma-lovemetender has turned the corner.

ILOVEGEORGEWBUSH(rsu) still lives with his parents.

I'm glad Rangertab is on our side.

Lothario is the "lover."

jlesk loves George W. Bush.

I hope HoosierDaddy gets on the field this year.

Nephorm is a despot.

Dean is "over-sexed, over-paid, and over-there."

I'm:

JeffR/Jerrfy/Jeffy/Cheerleader/Cream

Rainjack, I'm sorry to break it to you, but I'll be able to get Jpbear Visas before you (I'm a special friend of George H.W. Bush).

Hope this clarifies my position.

JeffR


#5

Ahem.

Tubesteak Boogie.


#6

lol

In Iraq war, there is.
Against it, I am.


#7

T-Nation's going to have to upgrade their hard-drive for a question like that. This... will get ugly.


#8

Im in the US Army in Iraq. After being here for a while, I have several basic views on the war:

a) The news everywhere makes Iraq seem a hell of a lot worse than it really is.

b) There are many 3rd World countries that are much more dangerous than Iraq.

c) WMD or no WMD, no one should argue that we should not have removed Saddam Hussein. The entire world should be ashamed that they allowed such an evil man to rule for as long as he did.

d) After capturing foreign fighters in Iraq, it is clear that the terrorists here would be in New York, London, Los Angeles, or any other major city carrying out attacks if the US and allies were not in Iraq. Believe me it is much easier to dispense with them here than in the US.

Many of you may disagree with me on these points, but unless you have been here, you really have little ground to stand on.


#9

gocav,
are you with the 3rd ACR?


#10

Iraq? I am not sure if we have ever discussed this or not.

There are only two sides. Those who know what is going on, and those who hate Bush. It would be great if people could have an opinion that wasn't filtered through their emotional distress over who won the presidency.

gocav had a great answer.


#11

Im in the army too, havent been there yet but I'm sure I'll pay my dues before its all said and done. Die if I have to. However, one problem plagues me what is the leadership doing to ensure success. Sure the media only covers the BAD news, but what good news is there. Soldiers and Marines are dying daily, Im concerned, is the leadership or the American public? This is not a moot issue, most Americans dont think this war affects them as the previous post indicate. Im here to say it does. We have entered a new cold war, one
far deadlier than the one of the past. One with rogue nations, radical nations, intent on doing harm to the United States of America. Are we United? It appears to me as if we are divided. Democrats say this, Republicans say this, yadda yadda yadda. But what does this do for the soldier on the ground, busting his ass for the middle class American who thinks this war doesnt affect him/her. Is anything other than success an option at this point? But how do we achieve success? What are we doing to secure the borders, what sort of foreign relations are we working other than shit talking and name calling. Get face to face with world leaders, sure logistically its a dangerous situation, but who gives a shit, this country needs leadership from the top. We need to know the big wigs will do what it takes to get the job done. Us grunts will handle the rest. The time is now before this shit really hits the fan, "stay the course" and its inevitable. Doesnt affect us? Wake up!
COMMENTS PLEASE


#12

"The end justifies the means" Niccilo Machavelie.
Here it goes. I am a combat medic currently deployed in a country called Kosovo which is inside Serbia. Note: i volunteered for this deplyment. We are a Q.R.F. (quick responce force) company. We are the highly trained ones that go out when it all goes wrong. We also train and work with many other European contries. Im sure almost none of you know where Kosovo is or what goes on here just like I didn;t when I was getting deployed. I will most likely be heading to Iraq within a year when I get back with my old unit. I have had seveal friends who have gone to Iraq who I am close to. One ,Spc. Mcbride, is on his second tour now. I can;t stand the news anymore. I love T-nation but I rarely go into the war and polls room......let me tell you why. (i hope this doesnt piss to many people off......I love you T_nation) =*)
There are people who sit and spend hours talking about the war, about things they cannot change. No matter how much they complain, argue, critique, they will never change things. Anything that goes on in the Iraq is Echelons above any reporter or average Joe who sits and reads articles about Iraq from their daily paper or watches it on T.V. They will never have the BALLS or do they WORK to try to change anything. They use the war as a discussion forum or a point on where thay can express themselves. Get to the damn gym or do something f*cking productive, be a productive member of society, coach a little leauge team, something. Don't be a damn print reader and thinker.
Most the poeple I hear that crticize the war would never dare put on a uniform to protect it. They dont have the balls to deal with the life. Not just war, the life of a soldier. The bullsh*t you deal with, dangers you take, teamwork you need, and attention to detail that is critical. These criticizers are somewhere between a pile a sh*t and the sweat on the bottom of my balls. They all stink, have no purpose,no spine, no worth.....(I laugh at my comparision)
The negative is all we hear, eveyone knows that. We hear "4 soldiers killed today in Iraq during a vehicle check point." They dont even have the f#cking respect to say or pay respect to the soldiers names. We hear of the money we spend, the number of troops that are over there. Well let me tell you something, we all volunteered, we knew the risks when we joined,
"Soldiers creed: 1. I am an American soldier, fighting in the forces which gaurd our counrty and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense."
This is what we do, is it always fun, pleasurable, easy?,......hell no, but it is what we do and we live with that.
In any conflict where any soldier loses his life is not good, but lets look in the past at wars like these, maybe you have heard of them, Vietnam, The Korean war, World War 2....... people still call the soldiers of W.W.2 the bravest generation. It only takes us watching movies like saving private ryan or band of brothers to see what these men went through. Just a thought, were any of the wars I listed fought to spefically "save" America. What if we never stopped Hitler, how far would he have gone.
........................................................................................Now ponder this......................If we could have gone in stopped Hitler before he started prison camps, before millions of innocent Jewish people were killed and Millions of soldeiers lost their lives. Would youhave killed him before he would have had a chance to do everyhing he did, knowing what we know now? I hope you say yes, Now what if i said all we had was some intellegence saying that this man might start a movement aginst the Jews....... Would it be good enough, probably not for most. Lets learn from the past and be glad we went into to Iraq, if not for weapons of mass destruction, for the people of that country who had been repressed and killed for years!!!!! The bath party, strict food rations...... come on now.
Now for the part that really gets to me. Here in Kosovo the people love american soldiers, they love us. We have been on night missions and they have made us coffee and gave my whole squad diner, (2-3 weeks worht of food for the average Albanian or Serbian here)They invite us in their house and show us bullet holes from the war that was here. We walk down the villages and are always greeted and told thank you for what you do and have done. ( i might have cried on occasion just don;t tell) However whenever i go anywhere in the states in unoform i get stared at, i have even been confronted and told by a man and his wife just what they think of the war in Iraq. Thank you America for your support. I am thousands of miles away in a 3rd world country, but feel more welcome than i have in my own country.
Now I know everyone is not like this. There are many Americans who support us in everyway possible and I am thankful for these people. Our army is known world wide as being the best,the very best, I have worked with the Italians, Danish, Irish, Germans, Greeks, and even the French Foreign Legion(who are actually normal guys) and have been respected by all for what our military and country has done!
So am I getting my point across through all of my venting.
I dont like talking about Iraq because no one cares about the real stuff. No one sees the food we give them, the schools, bridges, water we give them. How they can walk the streets and not be as scared, they can run stores and markets and not give all their profits to a Dictator ruler.
The people in Iraq are just that, they are people, they know hate, sadness, loss, hunger.......
99% of people who discuss the war swear the world is over when their Double irish cream machiato takes 1 minute to long to make.
It seems people talk to much about sh*t they will never change and what they don't agree with, instead of being thankfull for what they have.
I would personally like to say thank you for all the other soldiers of all branches for what you do. Even if you are not deployed you put on the uniform everyday! I would mostly like to thank all those who have served and gave so much before us.
"Home of the free because of the brave"

I am now done and this will proably be my first and last post about the war. Thank you all.
Dastang


#13

Apologies buff if some of us above took your question rather flippantly. It's just that we have discussed the topic on this forum many times. If you scroll through the past threads in the Politics forum you will be able to read screeds on our views.

And gocav, while I respect the work you are doing and that you are putting your life on the line, to say that no one is entitled to an opinion unless they are actually in the thick of it like you are, is bull. We all read, and listen, and draw our own conclusions. And that goes both ways. Those against, and those for, because the men who decided you would go there, did not make that decision along side you in Iraq. They made that decision in a comfortable Washington office.

Dastang, good work you are doing. This is one part of the site where virtually everyone, I would say, does know where Kosovo is.

Now as to Iraq. My personal view is that I am opposed men like yourselves risking your lives for a war I do not think was entirely justified. Comparisons with Hitler are incorrect. Saddam had no more plans for territorial expansion. His armed forces had never recovered from the first Gulf War. He had no WMDs. Iraq does not further the war on Terror either. It may make our terror problem worse in the future. Now as to the point made that a vicious dictator has been removed from power, there are tons of vicious dictators and evil regimes in the world. Do we go after them all? Or just the ones with oil? Or the ones we have a ten year old score to settle with? Or do we just do it to be a 'War President'. Or to outdo daddy? And is it right to fabricate intelligence to begin this war? And is it right to go on about 'liberating the people of Iraq' when this was not our initial intention? It is great that the people of Iraq have been freed from Saddam, but this was not promoted as a reason to begin the war. And is it right to create an illusion in Americans minds that Al Qaeda and Iraq were somehow the same thing, when before the US invaded this was patently not true? And why are we diverting resources away from looking for Osama Bin Laden, the real perpetrator of 9/11?

When you weigh everything up, the only good to come out of the Iraq war is that Iraq's people are free now. But the damage caused to the US's position in the world, the creation of future terrorists, the death and destruction, have been too much of a cost.


#14

Destang, Gocav,

God Bless you and your missions.

Wanted you to know that there are many of us behind BOTH.

Now to dean.

Had to do it, didn't you?

Well, I can't let our fighting brethren think that some of us cannot connect the dots.

dean wrote:

"Apologies buff if some of us above took your question rather flippantly. It's just that we have discussed the topic on this forum many times. If you scroll through the past threads in the Politics forum you will be able to read screeds on our views."

Very true.

"And gocav, while I respect the work you are doing and that you are putting your life on the line, to say that no one is entitled to an opinion unless they are actually in the thick of it like you are, is bull."

However, YOU are in a much better position to accurately judge the situation. We suffer through the filter of the media. Many of us practically BEG returning soldiers to give us the real story. That is why I sincerely hope you guys drop in from time to time and educate us.

"We all read, and listen, and draw our own conclusions. And that goes both ways. Those against, and those for, because the men who decided you would go there, did not make that decision along side you in Iraq. They made that decision in a comfortable Washington office."

Dumb statement. The days of Henry V are over. The last major official that I can think of that pushed a war, resigned his elected position and went off to War was Teddy Roosevelt in 1898. I didn't see FDR at Iwo. Missed billyboy when the bombs fell on the Aspirin factory. Where was Lyndon during the Tet Offensive.

"Dastang, good work you are doing. This is one part of the site where virtually everyone, I would say, does know where Kosovo is."

Agreed.

"Now as to Iraq. My personal view is that I am opposed men like yourselves risking your lives for a war I do not think was entirely justified."

I am very proud of you men fighting a war that was not only justified but inevitable. I was either going to be Germany in 1932 or in 1941.

"Comparisons with Hitler are incorrect."

They are right on. Every brutual, expansionist characteristic was present and active.

"Saddam had no more plans for territorial expansion."

Wrong. Read Duefler. On his way to reconstituting his weapons of mass destruction program. What for? Ask his captured regime members. They have said he was on his way to further conquests. Besides, who in the hell would think that after invading Iran, Kuwait, and firing missles on Israel, that this guy was going to stop?

"His armed forces had never recovered from the first Gulf War."

Time.

"He had no WMDs."

Yes he did. Apparently, no obvious stockpiles. He had a nascent weapons program that was being increasingly funded every year.

"Iraq does not further the war on Terror either."

Front line of the war on terror.

Not to mention the concept of deterrance.

Anyone else glad to have a burgeoning ally NEXT DOOR to Iran right about now?

See hostage taker as President.

"It may make our terror problem worse in the future."

Actually, it has already helped. See Pakistan offensives. See Libya voluntarily relinquishing WMD. They understand deterrance.

"Now as to the point made that a vicious dictator has been removed from power, there are tons of vicious dictators and evil regimes in the world. Do we go after them all?"

Do we have to go after them all?

See Libya and the concept of deterrance.

This is on of the most ignorant dem positions taken. It's like saying, "I'm a patient with Lupus, Brain Cancer, Diabetes, and a ruptured gall bladder. No Doctor, you cannot fix my gall bladder unless you fix all the others RIGHT NOW."

"Or just the ones with oil?"

HALLIBURTON RULES THE WORLD!!!

"Or the ones we have a ten year old score to settle with? Or do we just do it to be a 'War President'. Or to outdo daddy?"

Jesus, that is so irresponsible as to make comment difficult.

"And is it right to fabricate intelligence to begin this war?"

Proof please.

"And is it right to go on about 'liberating the people of Iraq' when this was not our initial intention?"

It certainly was one of the major aims. See the 2002 speech of W. that I posted for you. I would appreciate the courtesy of reading material that I lay out.

"It is great that the people of Iraq have been freed from Saddam, but this was not promoted as a reason to begin the war."

That is absolutely false. See speech.

"And is it right to create an illusion in Americans minds that Al Qaeda and Iraq were somehow the same thing, when before the US invaded this was patently not true?"

You are dead wrong. zarqawi was harbored and protected by saddam. You knew (from not reading my material) that the King of Jordan asked saddam to extradite zarqawi BEFORE THE WAR and saddam refused. AKA harboring. Or do you maintain that zarqawi isn't al qaeda?

"And why are we diverting resources away from looking for Osama Bin Laden, the real perpetrator of 9/11?"

Everyone raise their hands if you think that more troops are the answer?

Ask Porter Goss about it. He'll tell you it isn't troop numbers, it's getting Pakistan to allow troops in to get bin laden. How would more troops have helped that?

"When you weigh everything up, the only good to come out of the Iraq war is that Iraq's people are free now. But the damage caused to the US's position in the world, the creation of future terrorists, the death and destruction, have been too much of a cost."

Wrong. Identified our REAL allies. Disrupted, killed, captured, removed, deterred terrorists and terrorist supporting regimes all over the planet.

Inspired trust in our ability to stay the course. Lived up to our ideals of promoting Democracy. Undid a wrong (arming saddam).

Again, I want you guys to know that what you see on the media is as misrepresentative of Americans as it is of the War in Iraq. Don't forget that most of the media don't bother to feign objectivity.

We are behind you and your mission.

JeffR


#15

You should be very careful as that statement is a severe indictment on us.

We never met a dictator we did not like and it does not matter which party is running the show.


#16

This is just proof that going to war or dropping bombs has nothing to do with which party is in office.

The Democrats owned the Vietnam fiasco and the Republicans own the Iraq fiasco.

Being a 'war president' has been the desire of every president since I can remember. It allows the president to get away things they would not normally get away with. Oh yeah, it helps when your party controls congress too. Kennedy and LBJ are perfect examples of this.

Iraq is a big mistake but leaving or setting a time table does not solve anything. I do not have an answer but I know the intelligence was BS but no one is going to pay for that.


#17

Don't forget the US supplied him with weapons to fight Iran. Rumsfeld even shook hand with the cunt.


#18

We supplied weapons to the Soviet Union in the 40's. Then we defended ourselves against them for the next 50 years. Last week Kraft gave Putin a Superbowl ring.

Times and circumstances change. Britian is our only reliable ally over time. Others come and go.


#19

Take a look at Just War Theory if you want to know why so many soldiers are dying in Iraq with the situation not really improving - and becoming more dangerous with other countries.

To the soldiers - I have the utmost respect for you. It's good to hear your views. Unfortunetely there are quite a few soldiers that are misinformed as well (not you). I don't really know too much about the Iraq war but I would like to point out that it is your choice as a soldier what you are willing to lay your life on the line for. America can start a war, but if none of the soldiers are willing to fight in it - is it a war that should be fought? If you think the reasons are justified, then fight, but each person needs to make that decision before they enter the war, and thus not everyone will come to the same conclusion. You may think it worth it to remove Saddam and help the Iraqi's, others may think that it just wasn't worth the lives of soldiers. This is why information is so critical.


#20

You are correct.

America creates it's own reality.