T Nation

Iraq Invasion 10 Years Ago

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Well, hooray for freedom…I am anticipating the reach-around any day now.

And hooray for Empire, too. May her mountains of skulls pile ever higher.[/quote]

Its so fullfiling to liberate people from another continent from their oil.

Its easy to mess with a puny oponent-why not try to liberate Russia of Putin regime?? [/quote]

Another armchair analyst. What an original and insightful comment.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The US government does not invade countries it cannot out bomb. Ever.

[/quote]

Germany & Japan don’t count?[/quote]

Dude, what does the term “out bomb” mean to you?

Both those countries were laid waste to by US bomber planes.

The closest that any have come were the Japanese at Pearl Harbor but that was not even US proper at the time.

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Well, hooray for freedom…I am anticipating the reach-around any day now.

And hooray for Empire, too. May her mountains of skulls pile ever higher.[/quote]

Its so fullfiling to liberate people from another continent from their oil.

Its easy to mess with a puny oponent-why not try to liberate Russia of Putin regime?? [/quote]

Another armchair analyst. What an original and insightful comment. [/quote]

I hope you meant to be ironic.

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Oh God here we go, cry me a river over defense spending.[/quote]

Strong rebuttal.

I’ll just post cry me a river over all the government spending you “claim” to be against.

We have a debt crisis and “conservatives” whine about the President going to Hawaii and how much that costs us, but are totally cool with decades long trillion dollar wars. [/quote]

Why should I give you a thought out rebuttal? There have been at least 20 Iraw war threads over the past 10 years. It’s a complete waste of time.

I’ve already mentioned I’m all for a reduction in military spending, but and this important, it’s one of the very few things the governement is supposed to spend money on. Last I checked Healthcare isn’t one.

I should say, smart military spending, not necessarily a reduction; although, smarter spending could easily equal a reduction. [/quote]

I’d be curious to count the number of say gun control threads in the last 10 years. And yet we aren’t saying “waste of time!” And let’s keep in mind this “waste of time thread” didn’t keep you from posting originally in it.

The argument of defense is one of the things government is supposed to spend money on is irrelevant in this day and age. Is the government supposed to spend money on things like the CDC? Is it supposed to spend money on OSHA? Is it supposed to spend money on making sure companies put labels on products?

The thing is it DOES all that stuff, so using the tired line of well defense is what the government is supposed to spend money on as a reason for why it should spend tons of money is tired and let’s call it what it really is, an excuse. But it does allow the narrative for why government spending is so inefficient and bad in other areas, but not when it comes to invading other countries to live on so Repulicans can sleep better at night about supporting such a massive entity.

It’s a shame we could never see how much Republicans would attack the Iraq War if Obama or Clinton was in charge of it and it went down how it went down. Things like don’t question the commander in chief and all the other tired excuse lines went out the door for many on the right the moment a Democrat was in charge of the White House. [/quote]

  1. You are unreal, I didn’t say it is a waste of time. I posted an article I read SUPPORTING MANY OF YOUR POINT. You immediatly jumped on me.

  2. Gun control is a hot issue right now, Iraq isn’t.

  3. The argument for defense spending vs. other spending is not irrelevant at all. We need to reign in spending, that doesn’t mean we just ignore the constitution or the changes in U.S. since the 1700s. You can call it what you want, it’s not an excuss and I;m not going to argue with you about it.

  4. Democrats foavored the war, calling out Republicans just shows how bias you are.

  5. Again, Republicans have criticized the war, you are obviously bias.

  6. Clinton would have gone to war, Obama as well. SOme would have supported it others wouldn’t have. Many people would have shown their bias exactly as you suggest (and are), welcome to reality. [/quote]

  7. You literally called it a waste of time. Your own words.

  8. Government spending is a hot issue right now. Defense is a huge part of it. And this thread is about Iraq. You don’t want to talk about Iraq War don’t enter it.

  9. It’s a talking point that I KNEW would come out because it always comes out from imperialists.

  10. Democrats are fucking morons as well. Where did I say they weren’t. I merely pointed out that had this been a Democrat thing all the Republicans would be leaping up and down calling this the clusterfuck it was. That’s what happens when people wear political jerseys.

  11. It’s LARGELY Republicans you will find defending it today. The fact that some Republicans can admit now what a clusterfuck it was isn’t a feather in Republicans hat.

  12. I don’t think you know for sure what another President would or wouldn’t have done, but THAT is irrelevant. Clinton or Obama or Reagan or Lincoln wasn’t in office. [/quote]

  13. I said giving you thorough rebuttal is a waste of time as it has been done 1,000,000 times since 2003.

  14. OP had nothing to do with spedning, guess I was just suppsoed to guess that’s the direction this was gonna go huh? I guess your one line in your OP was enough for me to know right?

  15. Crap, don’t care what you call me.

  16. You specifically called out Republicans, I guess I was just supposed to know you’re anti party right?

  17. "not when it comes to invading other countries to live on so Repulicans can sleep better at night about supporting such a massive entity. " - THis isn’t bias at all?

  18. Don’t care who is LARGELY defending it.

  19. You serious? Of course I don’t know for sure, This is a place to share OPINIONS correct? You brought up the other presidents, I didn’t.

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Oh God here we go, cry me a river over defense spending. [/quote]

Although I don’t share the extreme views of some here, it is important to consider the long term consequences…and there are many.

[/quote]

For me the spending is a huge issue, but I didn’t get to sit in those budget meetings. The thing is, imo, the removal of Saddam gives a chance to those that never ever would have had one. To me that is priceless. Will it amount to anything, maybe, maybe not. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have tried.

Everyone has their thoughts, mine are, we give billions away to fat slobs with a dozen kids, but we can’t spend money helping the oppresed? I don’t agree with that that is all. [/quote]

Why are you not jumping up and down supporting us invading Egypt, Syria, Iran, Russia, China, most of Africa, etc? Is there something special about people in Iraq or is oppression oppression? I can only assume you think our work has just started and we need to get busy with the rest of the world correct? I mean we should at least try right?

That’s just being consistent. [/quote]

Did nanyone say anything about Egypt, Syria, Ira, Russia, China, Africa, etc… How do you know my thought on the matter?

Ya actually, if some dick head is spraying “his” people with mustad gas, I’d say we should step in. Oh, but it’s expensive, says the RICHEST nation in the world that consumes THE MOST resources.

It’s cool though we can sit behind a computer enjoying our freedom, I mean fuck those kids in Africa being forced into slavery or prositution, the DOW is down…

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The US government does not invade countries it cannot out bomb. Ever.

[/quote]

Germany & Japan don’t count?[/quote]

Dude, what does the term “out bomb” mean to you?

Both those countries were laid waste to by US bomber planes.

The closest that any have come were the Japanese at Pearl Harbor but that was not even US proper at the time.[/quote]

Oh sorry, I didn’t think you literally mean’t “Out bombed”

I guess we can invade anyone because no one is going to “out bomb” us.

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Oh God here we go, cry me a river over defense spending. [/quote]

Although I don’t share the extreme views of some here, it is important to consider the long term consequences…and there are many.

[/quote]

For me the spending is a huge issue, but I didn’t get to sit in those budget meetings. The thing is, imo, the removal of Saddam gives a chance to those that never ever would have had one. To me that is priceless. Will it amount to anything, maybe, maybe not. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have tried.

Everyone has their thoughts, mine are, we give billions away to fat slobs with a dozen kids, but we can’t spend money helping the oppresed? I don’t agree with that that is all. [/quote]

Why are you not jumping up and down supporting us invading Egypt, Syria, Iran, Russia, China, most of Africa, etc? Is there something special about people in Iraq or is oppression oppression? I can only assume you think our work has just started and we need to get busy with the rest of the world correct? I mean we should at least try right?

That’s just being consistent. [/quote]

We put troops on the ground in Africa and it led us to Iraq and Afghanistan. The famous “Black Hawk Down” incident occurred during our attempt, under Clinton, to liberate an oppressed people from warlords. This led us to our current state of affairs, because those without the conscience to stay around and help left a power vacuum that bin Laden interpreted as weakness on the government’s part. Similarly, under H.W. Bush, our abandonment of the Kurds in particular, have made this time in Iraq particularly difficult because the locals now have a built-in distrust of U.S. and to an extent, coalition forces.
What we’re doing now is the delicate work of rebuilding a nation on many different fronts. It’s not easy to use military might and then build an independent country, and it never will be. You’re forced to put a gun in someone’s face one day and then convince them to try and be an honest and upstanding citizen and change their way of life the next. You can’t just start from scratch, because many of the ousted regime are actually critical parts of the country’s infrastructure. It’s not as simple as you make it out to be, just a direct action and then walk away from a smoldering aftermath. The real question that needs to be asked about the “worth” of this endeavor doesn’t need to be directed to everyone with an opinion to spout, it needs to be asked of those returning, especially those who have paid with themselves in some fashion. If they feel it’s worth it, who are you to degrade the sacrifice those people have made in pursuit of something bigger than themselves?

Of course I called out Republicans, they were in control when the shit went down. FFS the Democrats get called out on this board every single day for what takes place right now even if a Republican votes for it. I don’t see what the big deal about that is.

You can call that bias that’s just how I see it. Fact is Republicans rail on and on about how much the government spends, about how inefficient it is, about how fraudulent it is. Point out some of that may happen with defense and they just have to have an excuse ready. You don’t support the troops? The constitution says we should spend on defense! You hate America? You want us to be invaded?

But yes, I’m biased against both parties, highly so. I’m biased against anyone who would vote for something or support something based on the letter besides a persons name or issue. In fact that’s my number one pet peeve with society on the whole. All I was saying is you change GWB to Barack Obama and Republicans are out calling Iraq one of the biggest fuck ups in American history.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I guess we can invade anyone because no one is going to “out bomb” us. [/quote]

Not we. You and people like you as well as the chickenhawks who command you.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Oh God here we go, cry me a river over defense spending. [/quote]

Although I don’t share the extreme views of some here, it is important to consider the long term consequences…and there are many.

[/quote]

For me the spending is a huge issue, but I didn’t get to sit in those budget meetings. The thing is, imo, the removal of Saddam gives a chance to those that never ever would have had one. To me that is priceless. Will it amount to anything, maybe, maybe not. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have tried.

Everyone has their thoughts, mine are, we give billions away to fat slobs with a dozen kids, but we can’t spend money helping the oppresed? I don’t agree with that that is all. [/quote]

Why are you not jumping up and down supporting us invading Egypt, Syria, Iran, Russia, China, most of Africa, etc? Is there something special about people in Iraq or is oppression oppression? I can only assume you think our work has just started and we need to get busy with the rest of the world correct? I mean we should at least try right?

That’s just being consistent. [/quote]

Did nanyone say anything about Egypt, Syria, Ira, Russia, China, Africa, etc… How do you know my thought on the matter?

Ya actually, if some dick head is spraying “his” people with mustad gas, I’d say we should step in. Oh, but it’s expensive, says the RICHEST nation in the world that consumes THE MOST resources.

It’s cool though we can sit behind a computer enjoying our freedom, I mean fuck those kids in Africa being forced into slavery or prositution, the DOW is down…[/quote]

I just think you’re being inconsistent is all. How can you support the Iraq War on terms of oppression and then ignore oppression in other areas? If oppression is worth that war why is it not worth others? Isn’t oppression taking place all over the world today? All I was saying is surely you support us getting rid of other regimes/oppressed people right?

As for expensive, again you seem to be very much against billions to “fat slobs with a dozen kids.” You seem to be very much against health care for say poor people. Homelessness, mental health, education, the kids born here who are in awful situations every day?

Man I’ve seen you RAILING against government spending and action in other threads. But here it’s we’re the richest nation.

I’m not even really disagreeing with you, I just think personally you’re being pretty inconsistent on somethings.

[quote]H factor wrote:
Of course I called out Republicans, they were in control when the shit went down. FFS the Democrats get called out on this board every single day for what takes place right now even if a Republican votes for it. I don’t see what the big deal about that is.

You can call that bias that’s just how I see it. Fact is Republicans rail on and on about how much the government spends, about how inefficient it is, about how fraudulent it is. Point out some of that may happen with defense and they just have to have an excuse ready. You don’t support the troops? The constitution says we should spend on defense! You hate America? You want us to be invaded?

But yes, I’m biased against both parties, highly so. I’m biased against anyone who would vote for something or support something based on the letter besides a persons name or issue. In fact that’s my number one pet peeve with society on the whole. All I was saying is you change GWB to Barack Obama and Republicans are out calling Iraq one of the biggest fuck ups in American history. [/quote]

And I was point out that if Barack Obama had started the war in Iraq you’d have the same thing, many all for it and other against.

There was no way for me to know dislike both parties, Republicans are called out ALL THE TIME, read anyone of Zepplin’s threads, or whatever his name is, For crying out loud he started a Bush bash thread a few weeks ago…

I agree with what you said about voting, it pisses me off as well.

Again, though, like was beat to death in another recent thread by SMH and myself, defense spending is MUST and that’s all I will say on the matter.

You can disagree with the war in Iraq all you want, that’s your choice, I just can’t stand when the blame is put (at least how I interpreted it) directly on one person or party. It’s like saying Obama is to blame for Obamacare? Last I checked he just signed the damn thing, he didn’t write it, and I doubt he even read it.

The analogy between Operation Iraqi Freedom and the Korean War is a pretty flimsy one. You won’t find any direct 2003 analog to the June 1950 North Korean invasion.

Whatever you claim to have been the causes of the war, justification of the deaths of thousands of Americans, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, and a price tag in the multiple trillions…that’s a tall order.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I guess we can invade anyone because no one is going to “out bomb” us. [/quote]

Not we. You and people like you as well as the chickenhawks who command you.[/quote]

You’re American correct? Pretty sure that includes you.

“Ya actually, if some dick head is spraying “his” people with mustad gas, I’d say we should step in. Oh, but it’s expensive, says the RICHEST nation in the world that consumes THE MOST resources.”

And if some dickhead sez there were chem weapons where none were ultimately found…we go in anyway,
says the richest nation in the world that consumes the most resources.

American primacy is the most beneficial balance of power in the history of international relations. If some of the more idealistic posters in this thread had their wishes fulfilled, America would indeed commit preemptive superpower suicide. The world would see the return of war among rising powers as they jostle for power; the retreat of democracy around the world as authoritarian Russia and China acquire more clout; and the weakening of the global free market economy, which the United States created and supported for more than sixty years. This is the same free market that isolationist libertarians would have us abandon by allowing American influence to wane. We’ve seen this before in the breakdown of the Roman Empire and the collapse of the European order in World War I. The American world order is worth preserving at great cost, both in blood and treasure.

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Oh God here we go, cry me a river over defense spending. [/quote]

Although I don’t share the extreme views of some here, it is important to consider the long term consequences…and there are many.

[/quote]

For me the spending is a huge issue, but I didn’t get to sit in those budget meetings. The thing is, imo, the removal of Saddam gives a chance to those that never ever would have had one. To me that is priceless. Will it amount to anything, maybe, maybe not. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have tried.

Everyone has their thoughts, mine are, we give billions away to fat slobs with a dozen kids, but we can’t spend money helping the oppresed? I don’t agree with that that is all. [/quote]

Why are you not jumping up and down supporting us invading Egypt, Syria, Iran, Russia, China, most of Africa, etc? Is there something special about people in Iraq or is oppression oppression? I can only assume you think our work has just started and we need to get busy with the rest of the world correct? I mean we should at least try right?

That’s just being consistent. [/quote]

Did nanyone say anything about Egypt, Syria, Ira, Russia, China, Africa, etc… How do you know my thought on the matter?

Ya actually, if some dick head is spraying “his” people with mustad gas, I’d say we should step in. Oh, but it’s expensive, says the RICHEST nation in the world that consumes THE MOST resources.

It’s cool though we can sit behind a computer enjoying our freedom, I mean fuck those kids in Africa being forced into slavery or prositution, the DOW is down…[/quote]

I just think you’re being inconsistent is all. How can you support the Iraq War on terms of oppression and then ignore oppression in other areas? If oppression is worth that war why is it not worth others? Isn’t oppression taking place all over the world today? All I was saying is surely you support us getting rid of other regimes/oppressed people right?

As for expensive, again you seem to be very much against billions to “fat slobs with a dozen kids.” You seem to be very much against health care for say poor people. Homelessness, mental health, education, the kids born here who are in awful situations every day?

Man I’ve seen you RAILING against government spending and action in other threads. But here it’s we’re the richest nation.

I’m not even really disagreeing with you, I just think personally you’re being pretty inconsistent on somethings. [/quote]

I don’t get to make these choices. I would love to re-allocate wasted money to help those in need in Egypt, I’ll run for office, if you vote for me that’s what I’ll try to do. Unfortunately that’s not my place in this world. and again, how can I be being inconsistent when you didn’t even ask or know my position?

:slight_smile: Again, you are jumping to conclusions about me based off one sentence. I am all for helping others THAT NEED IT. Fat slobs that can hold down gainful employment don’t need it. They made CHOICES that fucked themselves. 7 year old slave/prostitutes in Somalia didn’t get any say in the matter.

And again, here you go. We are the richest nation, that doesnt mean we can just spend spend spend, I never said we should spend 10 Trillion of the military every year, did I? I have said in other threads and in this one military spending can and in many cases should be cut. Do I need to go back through my posts to find a quote for you?

I’m not being inconsistent at all.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The analogy between Operation Iraqi Freedom and the Korean War is a pretty flimsy one. You won’t find any direct 2003 analog to the June 1950 North Korean invasion.

Whatever you claim to have been the causes of the war, justification of the deaths of thousands of Americans, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, and a price tag in the multiple trillions…that’s a tall order.[/quote]

Not my words, four professor. I just linked the article.

[quote]Karado wrote:
“Ya actually, if some dick head is spraying “his” people with mustad gas, I’d say we should step in. Oh, but it’s expensive, says the RICHEST nation in the world that consumes THE MOST resources.”

And if some dickhead sez there were chem weapons where none were ultimately found…we go in anyway,
says the richest nation in the world that consumes the most resources. [/quote]

…Saddam used chemical weapons on his people, the intelligence community thought they were there, they weren’t. What exactly is your point?

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The analogy between Operation Iraqi Freedom and the Korean War is a pretty flimsy one. You won’t find any direct 2003 analog to the June 1950 North Korean invasion.

Whatever you claim to have been the causes of the war, justification of the deaths of thousands of Americans, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, and a price tag in the multiple trillions…that’s a tall order.[/quote]

And one no one (imo) has come close to hitting in this thread.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
“Ya actually, if some dick head is spraying “his” people with mustad gas, I’d say we should step in. Oh, but it’s expensive, says the RICHEST nation in the world that consumes THE MOST resources.”

And if some dickhead sez there were chem weapons where none were ultimately found…we go in anyway,
says the richest nation in the world that consumes the most resources. [/quote]

…Saddam used chemical weapons on his people, the intelligence community thought they were there, they weren’t. What exactly is your point? [/quote]

The intelligence community was nowhere near a consensus on this. Although you can find a lot of really good quotes by people who wanted to go to war with Iraq as if that is shocking.