I didn’t mean to come off as an ass. While we don’t agree on everything, I do respect your posts. I think all this living here with Obama signs every fucking where has had me edgy. I’m really dispirited about the republic and damn near a full year since deciding not to go back in the Corps I’m still bitter about towards a large portion of my countrymen. I’m not directing that fire productively. Now with my circle jerk over I will forge ahead.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
And how does the Bill of Rights apply to the rest of the world?
So sayeth Thomas Jefferson, “A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inferences.”
OK, A Bill of Rights, not THE Bill of Rights. And Jefferson does not equal the Constitution. I think those words “entitled to” are kind of problematic.[/quote]
True, considering the fact that Jefferson was in France during the framing of the Constitution. That said he was one of the figureheads of antifederalist thought and it was George Mason and the antifederalists that got the BoR in the Constitution. But I suppose that if you want to go with “A” Bill of Rights instead of “The” Bill of Rights and still accepted the premise that these rights are God-given, would we then just have to accept that every right put to paper applied to all peoples of the world?
[quote]
So sayeth Justice Brennen, “The Framers of the Bill of Rights did not purport to “create” rights. Rather, they designed the Bill of Rights to prohibit our Government from infringing rights and liberties presumed to be preexisting.”
I really don’t want to dig beyond a basic google search but I can if you still need me to prove the point.
Yeah, but a basic Google search is all I used to check that the Bill of Rights does not in any way refer to universal rights given to us by our Creator. Neither does the preamble to the Constitution. [/quote]
Yeah, I’m pretty well versed in them and they don’t state this in their text. I don’t think that defeats the statement that our rights are inherent though.[quote]
The idea was and always has been that we have rights by our very existence. This is also said in the DoI, but several of those rights are simply put to paper in the BoR. And if you would have read my post before jumping into your idealogical supersuit then you would see that I was asking a question as to whether or not the BoR applied to the rest of the world.
I don’t know about ideological supersuit, but fair enough, you did phrase it as a question.
Didn’t we learn anything from the last few years of trying to transfer Western rights and norms to other countries? Good to see that the French Revolution and all its ills are alive and well.
bangs head against wall Okay, were you just looking for the tiniest opening to spout out your feelings on the war that we’ve all heard a dozen times? My post had nothing to do with any of this. I was asking if we are violating the rights of Iraqis by taking their guns. I didn’t say anything about imposing our rights on them.
mike
I actually agree with you politically the majority of the time, and certainly on the 2nd Amendment. But my understanding has always been that the American and French Revolutions were fundamentally different. Ours was about the rights of Englishmen, which were being abridged by the King. It was a conservative revolution, if that’s possible. It was grounded in culture and history. Theirs was what you’re talking about, “the universal rights of Man,” a radical revolution that upended society and, predictably, resulted in a ton of bloodshed. But I’d be happy to hear a convincing argument otherwise.[/quote]
I think it’s fair to say that our revolution was more conservative than the French one, but ours was much more radical than most of us think. I’d say the guy most well-versed in the AmRev would be Gordon Wood who wrote the book Radicalism of the American Revolution. It’s a damn fine scholarly study of the radical change in American society leading up to and following the AmRev. [quote]
I also have trouble understanding how a guy who’s for freedom and extremely limited government at home justifies our exporting liberty abroad by force of arms. I think John Quincy Adams had it exactly right for America:
"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.
She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.
The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force…"[/quote]
I concede that I do believe in exporting liberty by the sword if necessary. It is how we shook off our own shackles so you really cannot figure it ineffective. My only beef is in our doing it with American tax dollars and sending men overseas as nation builders. As I’ve said before, if we did not have our own domestic terrorist force in the ATF it would be possible for men to assemble and train here to repel tyrants abroad. Imagine the potential for good we truly could have without a government monopoly on force.
Consider John Paul Jones. Following the American Revolution he went to help both the French and the Russians. What about Thomas Paine? He didn’t fight but went and joined the French Revolution after our war. Hell, he even took a seat in the national assembly.
Consider our own foreign help. How different would our own war for independence ahve been without Von Steuben or Lafayette? I still think we would have won, but who really knows? These men, like myself, fought not for a flag, but for an idea. [quote]
As for the Iraqis, I’d wager some money they have bigger complaints against us than leaving them with one AK per household.[/quote]
I’m sure some of them do. But that wasn’t the question at hand. And I don’t think it is 1 AK. This link says that it’s zero guns in Baghdad.
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=65269&archive=true
mike