T Nation

Iran Expanding It's Proxy War?

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I think it’s risen above suspicion. Iran is at war with the US. It is not only fighting us in Iraq, but clearly in Afghanistan too.

Let’s see…the US is including them in the “axis of evil”, everyone is saying that “all options are on the table”, and US troops are basically surrounding them by occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. To add insult to injury, fresh navy ships pop up every once in a while in the gulf for so-called “trainings”.

Had Iran invaded Canada and Mexico, and stationed ships on your coasts, would you be saying that the US is at war with Iran or that Iran is at war with the US? I think the distinction matters.

Awaiting an honest answer…[/quote]

Today, from BBC news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6741095.stm

Iranian Influence in Afghanistan

The salient points:
[i]Rory Stewart, a former diplomat now living in Afghanistan, believes little has changed: “Both here, and in Iraq, the Iranian government’s objectives are probably simply to destabilise the situation and deter the US-led coalition from attempting anything against Iran,” he said.

“They play very, very long strategic games, and do a lot of very traditional interference in neighbouring countries in order to try to defend their own national interests.” [/i]

So, they destabilize neighbors to further their own interests. That is, to secure their own defense.

I find it odd - another foreign power (Iran) meddling in other sovereign countries (Iraq and Afghanistan) and all. Is this okay, as long as US influence is halted? lixy? If you are so against the US exerting influence and disrupting the sovereignty of other countries, how about Iran?

Interesting link with Sudan emerging.

MI6 probes UK link to nuclear trade with Iran

Mark Townsend, crime correspondent
Sunday June 10, 2007
The Observer

A British company has been closed down after being caught in an apparent attempt to sell black-market weapons-grade uranium to Iran and Sudan, The Observer can reveal.
Anti-terrorist officers and MI6 are now investigating a wider British-based plot allegedly to supply Iran with material for use in a nuclear weapons programme. One person has already been charged with attempting to proliferate ‘weapons of mass destruction’.

During the 20-month investigation, which also involved MI5 and Customs and Excise, a group of Britons was tracked as they obtained weapons-grade uranium from the black market in Russia. Investigators believe it was intended for export to Sudan and on to Iran.

A number of Britons, who are understood to have links with Islamic terrorists abroad, remain under surveillance. Investigators believe they have uncovered the first proof that al-Qaeda supporters have been actively engaged in developing an atomic capability. The British company, whose identity is known to The Observer but cannot be disclosed for legal reasons, has been wound up.
A Customs and Excise spokesman said: ‘We continue to investigate allegations related to the supply of components for nuclear programmes including related activities of British nationals.’

It is not clear whether all of those involved in the alleged nuclear conspiracy were aware of the uranium’s ultimate destination or of any intended use.

British agents believe Russian black-market uranium was destined for Sudan, described as a ‘trans-shipment’ point. The alleged plot, however, was disrupted in early 2006, before the nuclear material reached its final destination.

Roger Berry, chairman of Parliament’s Quadripartite Committee, which monitors arms exports, said: ‘With the collapse of the Soviet Union there was always the question over not just uranium but where other WMD components were going and how this could be controlled. Real credit must go to the enforcement authorities that they have disrupted this. The really worrying aspect is that if one company is involved, are there others out there?’

Politically, the allegations hold potentially huge ramifications for diplomatic relations between the West and Tehran. Already, tensions are running high between Iran, the US and the European Union over the true extent of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Iran refuses to suspend its nuclear programme in the face of mounting pressure, arguing its intent is entirely peaceful and solely aimed at producing power for civilian use.

Investigators are understood to have evidence that Iran was to receive the uranium to help develop a nuclear weapons capability. ‘They may argue that the material is for civilian use but it does seem an extremely odd way to procure uranium,’ said Berry.

Alleged evidence of Sudan’s role will concern British security services. The East African state has long been suspected of offering a haven for Islamist terrorists and has been accused of harbouring figures including Osama bin Laden who, during the mid-Nineties, set up a number of al-Qaeda training camps in the country.

Details of the plot arrive against a backdrop of increasing co-operation between Sudan and Iran on defence issues, although the level of involvement, if any, of the governments in Khartoum and Tehran in the alleged nuclear plot is unclear.

However, circumstantial evidence suggesting that elements within both countries might be colluding on military matters has been mounting in recent months. A Sudanese delegation visited Iran’s uranium conversion facility in February, while the East African country reportedly recently signed a mutual defence co-operation pact with Iran, allowing Tehran to deploy ballistic missiles in Sudan.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Interesting link with Sudan emerging.

MI6 probes UK link to nuclear trade with Iran

Mark Townsend, crime correspondent
Sunday June 10, 2007
The Observer

A British company has been closed down after being caught in an apparent attempt to sell black-market weapons-grade uranium to Iran and Sudan, The Observer can reveal.
Anti-terrorist officers and MI6 are now investigating a wider British-based plot allegedly to supply Iran with material for use in a nuclear weapons programme. One person has already been charged with attempting to proliferate ‘weapons of mass destruction’.

During the 20-month investigation, which also involved MI5 and Customs and Excise, a group of Britons was tracked as they obtained weapons-grade uranium from the black market in Russia. Investigators believe it was intended for export to Sudan and on to Iran.

A number of Britons, who are understood to have links with Islamic terrorists abroad, remain under surveillance. Investigators believe they have uncovered the first proof that al-Qaeda supporters have been actively engaged in developing an atomic capability. The British company, whose identity is known to The Observer but cannot be disclosed for legal reasons, has been wound up.
A Customs and Excise spokesman said: ‘We continue to investigate allegations related to the supply of components for nuclear programmes including related activities of British nationals.’

It is not clear whether all of those involved in the alleged nuclear conspiracy were aware of the uranium’s ultimate destination or of any intended use.

British agents believe Russian black-market uranium was destined for Sudan, described as a ‘trans-shipment’ point. The alleged plot, however, was disrupted in early 2006, before the nuclear material reached its final destination.

Roger Berry, chairman of Parliament’s Quadripartite Committee, which monitors arms exports, said: ‘With the collapse of the Soviet Union there was always the question over not just uranium but where other WMD components were going and how this could be controlled. Real credit must go to the enforcement authorities that they have disrupted this. The really worrying aspect is that if one company is involved, are there others out there?’

Politically, the allegations hold potentially huge ramifications for diplomatic relations between the West and Tehran. Already, tensions are running high between Iran, the US and the European Union over the true extent of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Iran refuses to suspend its nuclear programme in the face of mounting pressure, arguing its intent is entirely peaceful and solely aimed at producing power for civilian use.

Investigators are understood to have evidence that Iran was to receive the uranium to help develop a nuclear weapons capability. ‘They may argue that the material is for civilian use but it does seem an extremely odd way to procure uranium,’ said Berry.

Alleged evidence of Sudan’s role will concern British security services. The East African state has long been suspected of offering a haven for Islamist terrorists and has been accused of harbouring figures including Osama bin Laden who, during the mid-Nineties, set up a number of al-Qaeda training camps in the country.

Details of the plot arrive against a backdrop of increasing co-operation between Sudan and Iran on defence issues, although the level of involvement, if any, of the governments in Khartoum and Tehran in the alleged nuclear plot is unclear.

However, circumstantial evidence suggesting that elements within both countries might be colluding on military matters has been mounting in recent months. A Sudanese delegation visited Iran’s uranium conversion facility in February, while the East African country reportedly recently signed a mutual defence co-operation pact with Iran, allowing Tehran to deploy ballistic missiles in Sudan.

[/quote]

This can’t be ignored. That is an absolutely damning report.

  1. The dangers of the Russian black market…weapons grade uranium…

  2. Al Qaeda affiliate connections to this black market…

  3. Iran’s interest in WEAPONS GRADE uranium. And, their use of Al Qaeda sympathizers to obtain it.

  4. Another illustration of the British radical Islam problem.

  5. Mounting evidence of Sudan and Iranian connections.

Sure, they caught this attempt. But, have they missed any successful procurements? What about future attempts?

[quote]hedo wrote:
… A Sudanese delegation visited Iran’s uranium conversion facility in February, while the East African country reportedly recently signed a mutual defence co-operation pact with Iran, allowing Tehran to deploy ballistic missiles in Sudan.

[/quote]

And why does Iran need it’s missles deployed in Sudan? Oh, yeah, for (mutual) protection.

Both countries are on a global hotlist for reasons of their own making.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
hedo wrote:
Interesting link with Sudan emerging.

MI6 probes UK link to nuclear trade with Iran

Mark Townsend, crime correspondent
Sunday June 10, 2007
The Observer

A British company has been closed down after being caught in an apparent attempt to sell black-market weapons-grade uranium to Iran and Sudan, The Observer can reveal.
Anti-terrorist officers and MI6 are now investigating a wider British-based plot allegedly to supply Iran with material for use in a nuclear weapons programme. One person has already been charged with attempting to proliferate ‘weapons of mass destruction’.

During the 20-month investigation, which also involved MI5 and Customs and Excise, a group of Britons was tracked as they obtained weapons-grade uranium from the black market in Russia. Investigators believe it was intended for export to Sudan and on to Iran.

A number of Britons, who are understood to have links with Islamic terrorists abroad, remain under surveillance. Investigators believe they have uncovered the first proof that al-Qaeda supporters have been actively engaged in developing an atomic capability. The British company, whose identity is known to The Observer but cannot be disclosed for legal reasons, has been wound up.
A Customs and Excise spokesman said: ‘We continue to investigate allegations related to the supply of components for nuclear programmes including related activities of British nationals.’

It is not clear whether all of those involved in the alleged nuclear conspiracy were aware of the uranium’s ultimate destination or of any intended use.

British agents believe Russian black-market uranium was destined for Sudan, described as a ‘trans-shipment’ point. The alleged plot, however, was disrupted in early 2006, before the nuclear material reached its final destination.

Roger Berry, chairman of Parliament’s Quadripartite Committee, which monitors arms exports, said: ‘With the collapse of the Soviet Union there was always the question over not just uranium but where other WMD components were going and how this could be controlled. Real credit must go to the enforcement authorities that they have disrupted this. The really worrying aspect is that if one company is involved, are there others out there?’

Politically, the allegations hold potentially huge ramifications for diplomatic relations between the West and Tehran. Already, tensions are running high between Iran, the US and the European Union over the true extent of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Iran refuses to suspend its nuclear programme in the face of mounting pressure, arguing its intent is entirely peaceful and solely aimed at producing power for civilian use.

Investigators are understood to have evidence that Iran was to receive the uranium to help develop a nuclear weapons capability. ‘They may argue that the material is for civilian use but it does seem an extremely odd way to procure uranium,’ said Berry.

Alleged evidence of Sudan’s role will concern British security services. The East African state has long been suspected of offering a haven for Islamist terrorists and has been accused of harbouring figures including Osama bin Laden who, during the mid-Nineties, set up a number of al-Qaeda training camps in the country.

Details of the plot arrive against a backdrop of increasing co-operation between Sudan and Iran on defence issues, although the level of involvement, if any, of the governments in Khartoum and Tehran in the alleged nuclear plot is unclear.

However, circumstantial evidence suggesting that elements within both countries might be colluding on military matters has been mounting in recent months. A Sudanese delegation visited Iran’s uranium conversion facility in February, while the East African country reportedly recently signed a mutual defence co-operation pact with Iran, allowing Tehran to deploy ballistic missiles in Sudan.

This can’t be ignored. That is an absolutely damning report.

  1. The dangers of the Russian black market…weapons grade uranium…

  2. Al Qaeda affiliate connections to this black market…

  3. Iran’s interest in WEAPONS GRADE uranium. And, their use of Al Qaeda sympathizers to obtain it.

  4. Another illustration of the British radical Islam problem.

  5. Mounting evidence of Sudan and Iranian connections.

Sure, they caught this attempt. But, have they missed any successful procurements? What about future attempts?[/quote]

Sloth/Hedo:

With the “planned” Israeli wargames and the discussion today about “plans,” it sounds like the drum is beating progressively louder.

I still think the Israeli’s lead.

What do you guys think?

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
With the “planned” Israeli wargames and the discussion today about “plans,” it sounds like the drum is beating progressively louder.

I still think the Israeli’s lead.

What do you guys think? [/quote]

They’re not stupid. Israelis are not brainwashed like you guys. They’ll never support an attack on Iran. That is, not unless they have proof (and I mean rock solid proof, not just the words of their leaders) that they’re in danger.

Ironically - and JTF will probably delight at this - Israelis are 50/50 split on their country attacking Iran. However, they’re 3/4 in favour of the US striking Tehran.

[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
With the “planned” Israeli wargames and the discussion today about “plans,” it sounds like the drum is beating progressively louder.

I still think the Israeli’s lead.

What do you guys think?

They’re not stupid. Israelis are not brainwashed like you guys. They’ll never support an attack on Iran. That is, not unless they have proof (and I mean rock solid proof, not just the words of their leaders) that they’re in danger.

Ironically - and JTF will probably delight at this - Israelis are 50/50 split on their country attacking Iran. However, they’re 3/4 in favour of the US striking Tehran.[/quote]

I’m absolutely confused by this post. Totally lost.

“They’ll never support an attack on Iran”

Yet, further down…

“Israelis are 50/50 split on their country attacking Iran.”

If 50% of Israelis already support attacking Iran, (without evidence Lixy deems “rock solid proof”) with only the evidence present at the time this poll was taken, how can he make such a matter -of-fact statement. Hell, when was your poll taken Lixy? By the way, what are your thoughts on the weapons grade material case?

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Sloth wrote:
hedo wrote:
Interesting link with Sudan emerging.

MI6 probes UK link to nuclear trade with Iran

Mark Townsend, crime correspondent
Sunday June 10, 2007
The Observer

A British company has been closed down after being caught in an apparent attempt to sell black-market weapons-grade uranium to Iran and Sudan, The Observer can reveal.
Anti-terrorist officers and MI6 are now investigating a wider British-based plot allegedly to supply Iran with material for use in a nuclear weapons programme. One person has already been charged with attempting to proliferate ‘weapons of mass destruction’.

During the 20-month investigation, which also involved MI5 and Customs and Excise, a group of Britons was tracked as they obtained weapons-grade uranium from the black market in Russia. Investigators believe it was intended for export to Sudan and on to Iran.

A number of Britons, who are understood to have links with Islamic terrorists abroad, remain under surveillance. Investigators believe they have uncovered the first proof that al-Qaeda supporters have been actively engaged in developing an atomic capability. The British company, whose identity is known to The Observer but cannot be disclosed for legal reasons, has been wound up.
A Customs and Excise spokesman said: ‘We continue to investigate allegations related to the supply of components for nuclear programmes including related activities of British nationals.’

It is not clear whether all of those involved in the alleged nuclear conspiracy were aware of the uranium’s ultimate destination or of any intended use.

British agents believe Russian black-market uranium was destined for Sudan, described as a ‘trans-shipment’ point. The alleged plot, however, was disrupted in early 2006, before the nuclear material reached its final destination.

Roger Berry, chairman of Parliament’s Quadripartite Committee, which monitors arms exports, said: ‘With the collapse of the Soviet Union there was always the question over not just uranium but where other WMD components were going and how this could be controlled. Real credit must go to the enforcement authorities that they have disrupted this. The really worrying aspect is that if one company is involved, are there others out there?’

Politically, the allegations hold potentially huge ramifications for diplomatic relations between the West and Tehran. Already, tensions are running high between Iran, the US and the European Union over the true extent of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Iran refuses to suspend its nuclear programme in the face of mounting pressure, arguing its intent is entirely peaceful and solely aimed at producing power for civilian use.

Investigators are understood to have evidence that Iran was to receive the uranium to help develop a nuclear weapons capability. ‘They may argue that the material is for civilian use but it does seem an extremely odd way to procure uranium,’ said Berry.

Alleged evidence of Sudan’s role will concern British security services. The East African state has long been suspected of offering a haven for Islamist terrorists and has been accused of harbouring figures including Osama bin Laden who, during the mid-Nineties, set up a number of al-Qaeda training camps in the country.

Details of the plot arrive against a backdrop of increasing co-operation between Sudan and Iran on defence issues, although the level of involvement, if any, of the governments in Khartoum and Tehran in the alleged nuclear plot is unclear.

However, circumstantial evidence suggesting that elements within both countries might be colluding on military matters has been mounting in recent months. A Sudanese delegation visited Iran’s uranium conversion facility in February, while the East African country reportedly recently signed a mutual defence co-operation pact with Iran, allowing Tehran to deploy ballistic missiles in Sudan.

This can’t be ignored. That is an absolutely damning report.

  1. The dangers of the Russian black market…weapons grade uranium…

  2. Al Qaeda affiliate connections to this black market…

  3. Iran’s interest in WEAPONS GRADE uranium. And, their use of Al Qaeda sympathizers to obtain it.

  4. Another illustration of the British radical Islam problem.

  5. Mounting evidence of Sudan and Iranian connections.

Sure, they caught this attempt. But, have they missed any successful procurements? What about future attempts?

Sloth/Hedo:

With the “planned” Israeli wargames and the discussion today about “plans,” it sounds like the drum is beating progressively louder.

I still think the Israeli’s lead.

What do you guys think?

JeffR

[/quote]

My guess Israel hits the nuke plants within a year. I’m sure they have people inside and Iranians have been defecting so they have the timeline. We most likely do also.

If the Iranians roll over then it ends there. I doubt they will. They’ll provoke something with the Americans to garner public support. At that point the US takes out the Iranian Navy and Air Force and probably the oil refining capacity (not production).

The Iranians will be shocked at the overwhelming response. I’d look for the next generation of tactics and weapons to be used on them. Stealth, precision, ECW. We’ll offer terms after the offensive capability of the military is destroyed. I don’t think they will take them initially until food and gas become scarce.

They control their own destiny, at this point, but the options are becoming limited. The old allies are dumping them and they are not very popular in the neighborhood.

[quote]hedo wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Sloth wrote:
hedo wrote:
Interesting link with Sudan emerging.

MI6 probes UK link to nuclear trade with Iran

Mark Townsend, crime correspondent
Sunday June 10, 2007
The Observer

A British company has been closed down after being caught in an apparent attempt to sell black-market weapons-grade uranium to Iran and Sudan, The Observer can reveal.
Anti-terrorist officers and MI6 are now investigating a wider British-based plot allegedly to supply Iran with material for use in a nuclear weapons programme. One person has already been charged with attempting to proliferate ‘weapons of mass destruction’.

During the 20-month investigation, which also involved MI5 and Customs and Excise, a group of Britons was tracked as they obtained weapons-grade uranium from the black market in Russia. Investigators believe it was intended for export to Sudan and on to Iran.

A number of Britons, who are understood to have links with Islamic terrorists abroad, remain under surveillance. Investigators believe they have uncovered the first proof that al-Qaeda supporters have been actively engaged in developing an atomic capability. The British company, whose identity is known to The Observer but cannot be disclosed for legal reasons, has been wound up.
A Customs and Excise spokesman said: ‘We continue to investigate allegations related to the supply of components for nuclear programmes including related activities of British nationals.’

It is not clear whether all of those involved in the alleged nuclear conspiracy were aware of the uranium’s ultimate destination or of any intended use.

British agents believe Russian black-market uranium was destined for Sudan, described as a ‘trans-shipment’ point. The alleged plot, however, was disrupted in early 2006, before the nuclear material reached its final destination.

Roger Berry, chairman of Parliament’s Quadripartite Committee, which monitors arms exports, said: ‘With the collapse of the Soviet Union there was always the question over not just uranium but where other WMD components were going and how this could be controlled. Real credit must go to the enforcement authorities that they have disrupted this. The really worrying aspect is that if one company is involved, are there others out there?’

Politically, the allegations hold potentially huge ramifications for diplomatic relations between the West and Tehran. Already, tensions are running high between Iran, the US and the European Union over the true extent of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Iran refuses to suspend its nuclear programme in the face of mounting pressure, arguing its intent is entirely peaceful and solely aimed at producing power for civilian use.

Investigators are understood to have evidence that Iran was to receive the uranium to help develop a nuclear weapons capability. ‘They may argue that the material is for civilian use but it does seem an extremely odd way to procure uranium,’ said Berry.

Alleged evidence of Sudan’s role will concern British security services. The East African state has long been suspected of offering a haven for Islamist terrorists and has been accused of harbouring figures including Osama bin Laden who, during the mid-Nineties, set up a number of al-Qaeda training camps in the country.

Details of the plot arrive against a backdrop of increasing co-operation between Sudan and Iran on defence issues, although the level of involvement, if any, of the governments in Khartoum and Tehran in the alleged nuclear plot is unclear.

However, circumstantial evidence suggesting that elements within both countries might be colluding on military matters has been mounting in recent months. A Sudanese delegation visited Iran’s uranium conversion facility in February, while the East African country reportedly recently signed a mutual defence co-operation pact with Iran, allowing Tehran to deploy ballistic missiles in Sudan.

This can’t be ignored. That is an absolutely damning report.

  1. The dangers of the Russian black market…weapons grade uranium…

  2. Al Qaeda affiliate connections to this black market…

  3. Iran’s interest in WEAPONS GRADE uranium. And, their use of Al Qaeda sympathizers to obtain it.

  4. Another illustration of the British radical Islam problem.

  5. Mounting evidence of Sudan and Iranian connections.

Sure, they caught this attempt. But, have they missed any successful procurements? What about future attempts?

Sloth/Hedo:

With the “planned” Israeli wargames and the discussion today about “plans,” it sounds like the drum is beating progressively louder.

I still think the Israeli’s lead.

What do you guys think?

JeffR

My guess Israel hits the nuke plants within a year. I’m sure they have people inside and Iranians have been defecting so they have the timeline. We most likely do also.

If the Iranians roll over then it ends there. I doubt they will. They’ll provoke something with the Americans to garner public support. At that point the US takes out the Iranian Navy and Air Force and probably the oil refining capacity (not production).

The Iranians will be shocked at the overwhelming response. I’d look for the next generation of tactics and weapons to be used on them. Stealth, precision, ECW. We’ll offer terms after the offensive capability of the military is destroyed. I don’t think they will take them initially until food and gas become scarce.

They control their own destiny, at this point, but the options are becoming limited. The old allies are dumping them and they are not very popular in the neighborhood.
[/quote]

Hedo,

I agree with this scenario. Any guesses on military allies?

I’m guessing the English sit this one out.

Any chance the germans pitch in?

Canadians?

I never thought I’d say this, however, I’m starting to like this French leader.

I’d be interested in your take.

JeffR

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If 50% of Israelis already support attacking Iran, (without evidence Lixy deems “rock solid proof”) with only the evidence present at the time this poll was taken, how can he make such a matter -of-fact statement. Hell, when was your poll taken Lixy? By the way, what are your thoughts on the weapons grade material case?[/quote]

The poll was from a few months ago.

What case are you talking about? If it’s Hedo’s piece where “investigators are understood to have evidence” and “analysts believe” allegations, I’m afraid that’s way too thin to convince the Israeli public. But of course, we all know that’s more than enough for you. After all, you supported the war on Iraq based on nothing more than suspicions.

[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
With the “planned” Israeli wargames and the discussion today about “plans,” it sounds like the drum is beating progressively louder.

I still think the Israeli’s lead.

What do you guys think?

They’re not stupid. Israelis are not brainwashed like you guys. They’ll never support an attack on Iran. That is, not unless they have proof (and I mean rock solid proof, not just the words of their leaders) that they’re in danger.

Ironically - and JTF will probably delight at this - Israelis are 50/50 split on their country attacking Iran. However, they’re 3/4 in favour of the US striking Tehran.[/quote]

lixy,

Strange post.

Not that I’m surprised, but, you seem to contradict yourself within the same post.

I’m guessing the Israeli’s are not taking too kindly to all this annhilation talk.

They probably aren’t comforted by iranians trying to obtain black market weapons grade russian uranium.

Nor, are they pleased with hezbollah support.

Finally, iran arming al qaeda cannot make them too sanguine.

I just can’t see us keeping out thumb on them this time.

I’ll bet we rightly say, “They have a right to defend themselves.”

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I’ll bet we rightly say, “They have a right to defend themselves.” [/quote]

You mean by launching pre-emptive strikes like what they did in '67? I’m not sure I’ll ever agree with somebody who tells me that a nuclear power’s sovereignty is threatened. But that’s just me. You, on the other hand, gladly bought/buy the argument that hordes of communists/Muslims represent a serious threat to your country.

[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I’ll bet we rightly say, “They have a right to defend themselves.”

You mean by launching pre-emptive strikes like what they did in '67? [/quote]

I’ll answer Lixy. Yes, by defending themselves like they did in '67.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
If 50% of Israelis already support attacking Iran, (without evidence Lixy deems “rock solid proof”) with only the evidence present at the time this poll was taken, how can he make such a matter -of-fact statement. Hell, when was your poll taken Lixy? By the way, what are your thoughts on the weapons grade material case?

The poll was from a few months ago.

What case are you talking about? If it’s Hedo’s piece where “investigators are understood to have evidence” and “analysts believe” allegations, I’m afraid that’s way too thin to convince the Israeli public. But of course, we all know that’s more than enough for you. After all, you supported the war on Iraq based on nothing more than suspicions.[/quote]

Same shit different day. Deny, attack the source, attack the poster. Predictable and boring.

Fanatics can’t change their mind and will not change the subject.

I’m sure a Jihadist would rather wait until a nuke actually hits Tel Aviv but that’s not likely to happen. The Iranians got themselves into this mess and will bear the responsibility for their actions. That’s an unusual concept in the Arab world, where everything can be blamed on someone else, but it’s something the rest of the world understands.

Iran can descalate at any time but chooses not to do so. Nuclear brinksmanship is a dangerousgame and not to be taken lightly, as the Iranians seem to do.

[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I’ll bet we rightly say, “They have a right to defend themselves.”

You mean by launching pre-emptive strikes like what they did in '67? I’m not sure I’ll ever agree with somebody who tells me that a nuclear power’s sovereignty is threatened. But that’s just me. You, on the other hand, gladly bought/buy the argument that hordes of communists/Muslims represent a serious threat to your country.[/quote]

Those silly Jews…didn’t they know the peaceful Arabs just wanted to come over for a picnic and some tea.

[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I’ll bet we rightly say, “They have a right to defend themselves.”

You mean by launching pre-emptive strikes like what they did in '67? I’m not sure I’ll ever agree with somebody who tells me that a nuclear power’s sovereignty is threatened. But that’s just me. You, on the other hand, gladly bought/buy the argument that hordes of communists/Muslims represent a serious threat to your country.[/quote]

lixy,

Please, don’t contend that Israel attacking first in 1967 wasn’t justified.

Just don’t do it, lixy.

If you were in my house with a knife, I’d throw you out the window without asking your intentions.

Second, are you trying to tell me that militant muslims and communists before them weren’t and aren’t a threat to the U.S.?

Are you ok, lixy?

You’re (even for you) unusually daft today.

JeffR

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I’ll answer Lixy. Yes, by defending themselves like they did in '67. [/quote]

Self defense is very hard to invoke when you strike first. Especially when the enemy is defeated within hours and there was international concensus on the clear superiority of the Israeli war machine.

But don’t take my word for it, read on this account by your very own Central Intelligence Agency.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no1/html_files/arab_israeli_war_1.html

That Israel was in imminent danger is a myth!

[quote]hedo wrote:
Those silly Jews…didn’t they know the peaceful Arabs just wanted to come over for a picnic and some tea. [/quote]

What Arabs came over? Who do you think crossed the border first?

[quote]JeffR wrote:
If you were in my house with a knife, I’d throw you out the window without asking your intentions. [/quote]

Again, who the hell are you referring to? Egyptians? Syrians? Jordanians?

None of those violated Israeli borders. Crack a histroy book up sometimes and get your bloody facts straight.

A threat to the US’ economical interests? Yes. A threat to the US’ hegemony and global sphere of influence? Yes. A threat to US sovereignty? Hell no! In their wildest dreams, they wouldn’t even come close.

[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
Those silly Jews…didn’t they know the peaceful Arabs just wanted to come over for a picnic and some tea.

What Arabs came over? Who do you think crossed the border first?[/quote]

Wow you are that dumb…

Multiple countries massed to attack but let’s wait until they actually start just to be sure.

What a waste of time it is arguing with a fanatic like you. Like wrestling a pig. You just get dirty and the pig seems to enjoy it.