T Nation

Introduction and First Cycle

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]BUDs wrote:
Thank you for the proper post, I wish more people would make a first cycle post like this.

Cycle looks good.

Stop the hcg 4-5 days before pct. I’d also get some adex or aromasin to run on cycle.

Pct looks good Id extend it out to 6 weeks though and run a low dose AI through pct, stopping one week after the Nolva.

Other than that everything looks good, by your pic you seem to have your diet and training in order. Good luck and have fun[/quote]

Thanks BUD for your reply, I think it just a win-win to help the people that are willing to reply to provide them with sufficient information about the topic starter. It should help me and of course the people that are willing to help me. I thank you for that.

I see indeed that a lot of guys running an AI on cycle, but my thoughts for not running an AI directly from the start was to see if I am “sensitive” to symptoms of too much estrogen, such as water retention etc.

Of course I’m keeping an AI such as Arimidex or Aromasin nearby to introduce it to my cycle when I get symptoms of too much estrogen for example gyno.
I’d use arimidex @ 0.25-0,5mg every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts) or 12.5-25mg every day.

Good that you say that about the hCG, you’re probably saying that, because of the half time of hCG that should be around 5 days, right? Thanks for the tip. I will implement it.

Could you explain why you would go for 6 weeks PCT instead of 4? I’ve always thought that 1/3 time on cycle would be enough to get your HPG axis going again.

About my training, diet:
I’ve always tried to eat healthy while training, only 1 weekly junkmeal and the rest of my diet contains “clean” food so to say. Only during my vacations I get a bit more loose and eat some more junk, damage control so to say.

I must admit though that I sometimes have a hard time eating 5000kcal of healthy, clean food, but I am still able to do that. It helps me feel good while training and living in general and that is a very important factor for me why I try to eat healthy. I just feel that I get way better results by doing that and I feel a lot better also.[/quote]

Cyco pretty much answered your questions.

AI is good to use unless you get bloodwork to confirm you don’t, which you are. I would start with a low dose to begin with. Even though it takes time for the test to build up in your blood, aromatization will begin quickly. Use a low dose and get bloods 4-5 weeks in and adjust he dose need be. High E has other negative effects other than gyno.

I run my hcg 2-3x a week.

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]BUDs wrote:
Thank you for the proper post, I wish more people would make a first cycle post like this.

Cycle looks good.

Stop the hcg 4-5 days before pct. I’d also get some adex or aromasin to run on cycle.

Pct looks good Id extend it out to 6 weeks though and run a low dose AI through pct, stopping one week after the Nolva.

Other than that everything looks good, by your pic you seem to have your diet and training in order. Good luck and have fun[/quote]

Thanks BUD for your reply, I think it just a win-win to help the people that are willing to reply to provide them with sufficient information about the topic starter. It should help me and of course the people that are willing to help me. I thank you for that.

I see indeed that a lot of guys running an AI on cycle, but my thoughts for not running an AI directly from the start was to see if I am “sensitive” to symptoms of too much estrogen, such as water retention etc.

Of course I’m keeping an AI such as Arimidex or Aromasin nearby to introduce it to my cycle when I get symptoms of too much estrogen for example gyno.
I’d use arimidex @ 0.25-0,5mg every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts) or 12.5-25mg every day.

Good that you say that about the hCG, you’re probably saying that, because of the half time of hCG that should be around 5 days, right? Thanks for the tip. I will implement it.

Could you explain why you would go for 6 weeks PCT instead of 4? I’ve always thought that 1/3 time on cycle would be enough to get your HPG axis going again.

About my training, diet:
I’ve always tried to eat healthy while training, only 1 weekly junkmeal and the rest of my diet contains “clean” food so to say. Only during my vacations I get a bit more loose and eat some more junk, damage control so to say.

I must admit though that I sometimes have a hard time eating 5000kcal of healthy, clean food, but I am still able to do that. It helps me feel good while training and living in general and that is a very important factor for me why I try to eat healthy. I just feel that I get way better results by doing that and I feel a lot better also.[/quote]

Cyco pretty much answered your questions.

AI is good to use unless you get bloodwork to confirm you don’t, which you are. I would start with a low dose to begin with. Even though it takes time for the test to build up in your blood, aromatization will begin quickly. Use a low dose and get bloods 4-5 weeks in and adjust he dose need be. High E has other negative effects other than gyno.

I run my hcg 2-3x a week.

[/quote]

interesting about your HCG… have you run it more or less frequent, or is that one of these protocols you’re just always done?

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]BUDs wrote:
Thank you for the proper post, I wish more people would make a first cycle post like this.

Cycle looks good.

Stop the hcg 4-5 days before pct. I’d also get some adex or aromasin to run on cycle.

Pct looks good Id extend it out to 6 weeks though and run a low dose AI through pct, stopping one week after the Nolva.

Other than that everything looks good, by your pic you seem to have your diet and training in order. Good luck and have fun[/quote]

Thanks BUD for your reply, I think it just a win-win to help the people that are willing to reply to provide them with sufficient information about the topic starter. It should help me and of course the people that are willing to help me. I thank you for that.

I see indeed that a lot of guys running an AI on cycle, but my thoughts for not running an AI directly from the start was to see if I am “sensitive” to symptoms of too much estrogen, such as water retention etc.

Of course I’m keeping an AI such as Arimidex or Aromasin nearby to introduce it to my cycle when I get symptoms of too much estrogen for example gyno.
I’d use arimidex @ 0.25-0,5mg every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts) or 12.5-25mg every day.

Good that you say that about the hCG, you’re probably saying that, because of the half time of hCG that should be around 5 days, right? Thanks for the tip. I will implement it.

Could you explain why you would go for 6 weeks PCT instead of 4? I’ve always thought that 1/3 time on cycle would be enough to get your HPG axis going again.

About my training, diet:
I’ve always tried to eat healthy while training, only 1 weekly junkmeal and the rest of my diet contains “clean” food so to say. Only during my vacations I get a bit more loose and eat some more junk, damage control so to say.

I must admit though that I sometimes have a hard time eating 5000kcal of healthy, clean food, but I am still able to do that. It helps me feel good while training and living in general and that is a very important factor for me why I try to eat healthy. I just feel that I get way better results by doing that and I feel a lot better also.[/quote]

Cyco pretty much answered your questions.

AI is good to use unless you get bloodwork to confirm you don’t, which you are. I would start with a low dose to begin with. Even though it takes time for the test to build up in your blood, aromatization will begin quickly. Use a low dose and get bloods 4-5 weeks in and adjust he dose need be. High E has other negative effects other than gyno.

I run my hcg 2-3x a week.

[/quote]

interesting about your HCG… have you run it more or less frequent, or is that one of these protocols you’re just always done?
[/quote]

I blast and cruise so I guess it’s just always what I’ve done

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

i’ll echo a couple things that others have said…

cycle looks good for the most part. as far as HCG, you don’t need to run it EOD (once a week is generally fine for most guys)… you’re just including it to minimize testicular atrophy. with that being said, HCG will keep your testes active, which means additional aromatization.

having an AI available until you get gyno is a serious mistake. when you get gyno, that means you have 1) too much estrogen, which is triggering the gyno and b)gyno, which you need to treat as well. either get bloodwork on cycle to gauge when/if you need an AI, or just start it at a low dose from the start…

a lot of guys do PCT for 4 weeks, for some reason (which i clearly don’t agree with, unless it’s for short cycles). you’re gonna be suppressed for like 14 weeks, so it’s quite presumptuous that 4 weeks is going to be sufficient in bringing your HPTA back up to snuff. most of the SERMs have been shown to be extremely effective in 6 weeks, and some work even longer than that.


[/quote]

Thanks for your input, cyco. I appreciate it.

My idea about the EOD or 3x times per week for hCG comes from the thought that injecting hCG more often mimics more the natural release of LH in the body. And injecting more often, reduces the dosis per injection and therefore the chance of aromatization. That is at least the idea behind from myself.

I see indeed a lot of guys running an AI, but my thought behind not directly using an AI is that I’d like to see how sensitive I am to symptoms of too much estrogen, maybe I don’t need an AI at all while using 500mg of test and 500-750iu of hCG on a weekly basis. My idea is that if I directly add an AI, I will not know if I really need an AI for such a cycle. I prefer not to take too much stuff for my first cycle. AI’s will put extra “stress” on the liver, of course.

A possible solution is of course that I could get some blood work in during my cycle. And check only: total test, free test + E2 to check if I need an AI. Since at the moment I don’t feel like running an AI directly for preventive measures.

At what E2 should I take Aromasin at 12,5-25mg ED or 0,25-0,5mg A-dex EOD?

Thanks for the PCT idea of 6 weeks, but I hardly see people having an 6 weeks PCT on a test-only cycle. What I do see is that some start the first 2 weeks on 40mg ED and last 2 weeks on 20mg ED.

What’s your opinion about that?

[quote]BUDs wrote:
Cyco pretty much answered your questions.

AI is good to use unless you get bloodwork to confirm you don’t, which you are. I would start with a low dose to begin with. Even though it takes time for the test to build up in your blood, aromatization will begin quickly. Use a low dose and get bloods 4-5 weeks in and adjust he dose need be. High E has other negative effects other than gyno.

I run my hcg 2-3x a week.

[/quote]

Thanks for your reply.

See my reasons why I don’t favour the idea of directly using an AI for a my first cycle.

I will also run hCG 3x times a week. Injections on mo, wo, fri would be great at 250iu, I guess.

Not sure about the AI, but I will get some Aromasin in to be sure, in case I need an AI to counter heavy symptoms of high E2.

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

i’ll echo a couple things that others have said…

cycle looks good for the most part. as far as HCG, you don’t need to run it EOD (once a week is generally fine for most guys)… you’re just including it to minimize testicular atrophy. with that being said, HCG will keep your testes active, which means additional aromatization.

having an AI available until you get gyno is a serious mistake. when you get gyno, that means you have 1) too much estrogen, which is triggering the gyno and b)gyno, which you need to treat as well. either get bloodwork on cycle to gauge when/if you need an AI, or just start it at a low dose from the start…

a lot of guys do PCT for 4 weeks, for some reason (which i clearly don’t agree with, unless it’s for short cycles). you’re gonna be suppressed for like 14 weeks, so it’s quite presumptuous that 4 weeks is going to be sufficient in bringing your HPTA back up to snuff. most of the SERMs have been shown to be extremely effective in 6 weeks, and some work even longer than that.


[/quote]

Thanks for your input, cyco. I appreciate it.

My idea about the EOD or 3x times per week for hCG comes from the thought that injecting hCG more often mimics more the natural release of LH in the body. And injecting more often, reduces the dosis per injection and therefore the chance of aromatization. That is at least the idea behind from myself.

I see indeed a lot of guys running an AI, but my thought behind not directly using an AI is that I’d like to see how sensitive I am to symptoms of too much estrogen, maybe I don’t need an AI at all while using 500mg of test and 500-750iu of hCG on a weekly basis. My idea is that if I directly add an AI, I will not know if I really need an AI for such a cycle. I prefer not to take too much stuff for my first cycle. AI’s will put extra “stress” on the liver, of course.

A possible solution is of course that I could get some blood work in during my cycle. And check only: total test, free test + E2 to check if I need an AI. Since at the moment I don’t feel like running an AI directly for preventive measures.

At what E2 should I take Aromasin at 12,5-25mg ED or 0,25-0,5mg A-dex EOD?

Thanks for the PCT idea of 6 weeks, but I hardly see people having an 6 weeks PCT on a test-only cycle. What I do see is that some start the first 2 weeks on 40mg ED and last 2 weeks on 20mg ED.

What’s your opinion about that?
[/quote]

if you think i’m wrong, then do it how you think will work. but don’t blow me off and expect me to explain it again…

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

if you think i’m wrong, then do it how you think will work. but don’t blow me off and expect me to explain it again…[/quote]

I just gave you my thoughts on the situation. I don’t say you’re wrong, I just gave you my thoughts and reasons for my set-up.

And I also just told what I’ve read on other forums, I don’t say the set-up of those forums are right or that yours is wrong.

I hoped to give you more information about my reasons why I came with this set-up. If you find that offensive, I apoligize… If you don’t want to give more arguments for your advice, that’s a shame, but that’s your free choice to make.

kid, run the fucking AI.

We get threads every day about libido problems post cycle and 99% of the time it’s from not managing E on cycle

[quote]Yogi wrote:
kid, run the fucking AI.

We get threads every day about libido problems post cycle and 99% of the time it’s from not managing E on cycle[/quote]

Some say don’t run an AI on your first cycle, just check if you maybe get symptoms of too much water retention or sensitive nipples if you get that then introduce an AI. It’s better to not run an AI if you might not need one.

And then you have some that say just run an AI, better safe than sorry.

Not sure what is wisdom. So much different opinions :slight_smile:

More people that would like to reply to the subject?

Thanks all that have replied until now, btw. Appreciate it.

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
kid, run the fucking AI.

We get threads every day about libido problems post cycle and 99% of the time it’s from not managing E on cycle[/quote]

Some say don’t run an AI on your first cycle, just check if you maybe get symptoms of too much water retention or sensitive nipples if you get that then introduce an AI. It’s better to not run an AI if you might not need one.

And then you have some that say just run an AI, better safe than sorry.

Not sure what is wisdom. So much different opinions :slight_smile:

More people that would like to reply to the subject?

Thanks all that have replied until now, btw. Appreciate it.
[/quote]

THERE ARE OTHER NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF HIGH ESTROGEN THAN JUST PUFFY NIPPLES AND WATER RETENTION THAT ARENT SEEN OR FELT.

unless you are going to moniter your blood frequently to make sure you don’t need an AI run the fucking AI.

My advice is to everyone is get bloodwork done before and during and after. Start with a low dose AI, get blood work at about 4-5 weeks in, adjust your dose need be, either increase it a bit or decrease it, get blood work again to see where your at, adjust it again.

If your not gonna get blood work then run a low dose AI anyways.

[quote]BUDs wrote:

THERE ARE OTHER NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF HIGH ESTROGEN THAN JUST PUFFY NIPPLES AND WATER RETENTION THAT ARENT SEEN OR FELT.

unless you are going to moniter your blood frequently to make sure you don’t need an AI run the fucking AI.

My advice is to everyone is get bloodwork done before and during and after. Start with a low dose AI, get blood work at about 4-5 weeks in, adjust your dose need be, either increase it a bit or decrease it, get blood work again to see where your at, adjust it again.

If your not gonna get blood work then run a low dose AI anyways.
[/quote]

You’re talking about the cardiovascular aspect of too much estrogen, right?

I can see what you guys mean, yeah.

I’m running an expensive pre-cycle blood test. During cycle I will get an E2 only (maybe get some total T + free T also with it) (saves cash) and then post-cycle the more complete blood test again.

I think I would go for Aromasin 10-12,5mg ED, any suggestions/thought about the frequency, dose?

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
kid, run the fucking AI.

We get threads every day about libido problems post cycle and 99% of the time it’s from not managing E on cycle[/quote]

Some say don’t run an AI on your first cycle, just check if you maybe get symptoms of too much water retention or sensitive nipples if you get that then introduce an AI. It’s better to not run an AI if you might not need one.

And then you have some that say just run an AI, better safe than sorry.

Not sure what is wisdom. So much different opinions :slight_smile:

More people that would like to reply to the subject?

Thanks all that have replied until now, btw. Appreciate it.
[/quote]

give me one good reason why you WOULDN’T run an AI?

[quote]Yogi wrote:

give me one good reason why you WOULDN’T run an AI?[/quote]

A reason for not running an AI is that you might not need one. Hard to tell that, when it’s the first cycle.
Some say you should only take stuff that you need. AI’s are also extra stress on the liver, lipid profile etc.

The only way to confirm the statement that you don’t need one is testing E2 during cycle. Then decide if you need introduction of AI or not.

That’s the arguments that I’ve found on the net from different people for not running an AI, especially for the first cycle.

Oki mother fucker don’t take one then. No one here gives a fuck if you get gyno. Holy shit quit being a pussy

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Oki mother fucker don’t take one then. No one here gives a fuck if you get gyno. Holy shit quit being a pussy[/quote]

Please only react if you want to add some information or personal experience into the topic :slight_smile: And by the way I’m not stating that I won’t take one, I’m just telling what others have said about using/not using an AI, all with different arguments, experiences.

The guys here know what is said elsewhere. You came here asking for advice, so why would you keep bringing up what ‘others said’? If you came here for advice then take it on board. Doesn’t mean you have to follow it to the letter, but arguing with the very guys you are asking advice from kind of negates the purpose.

This is why new guys get flamed in this forum, because the vets (and I’m not including myself in that, just going form what I have seen in countless threads on here) offer advice for free and then get arguments from new guys who mostly don’t have a clue and are relying on broscience.

Added liver stress from an AI? You are injecting a foreign substance into your body and you are worrying about the tiny addition of stress from an AI? The added liver stress from an AI is tiny, and I guarantee you won’t notice it. Unless you drank way too much in college and have already crippled your liver. Would you rather start with the water weight gain and then have to play catch up, or keep yourself in a better state from day 1, possibly making some small adjustments?

Trust me, we all know what other idiots say, yeah you might not need one but of you would rather risk getting gyno instead of taking a low dose ai that will have a miniscule effect if any on lipids and liver then go ahead be my guest. Then to get rid of that gyno you will have to take a higher dose of letro that will make you feel like shit and affect your lipids and liver a lot more or you have to get surgery. So your choice.

Added stress to the liver?

How about a hepatic adenoma from high estrogen. Hows that for added stress to the liver

[quote]boatguy wrote:
The guys here know what is said elsewhere. You came here asking for advice, so why would you keep bringing up what ‘others said’? If you came here for advice then take it on board. Doesn’t mean you have to follow it to the letter, but arguing with the very guys you are asking advice from kind of negates the purpose.

This is why new guys get flamed in this forum, because the vets (and I’m not including myself in that, just going form what I have seen in countless threads on here) offer advice for free and then get arguments from new guys who mostly don’t have a clue and are relying on broscience.

Added liver stress from an AI? You are injecting a foreign substance into your body and you are worrying about the tiny addition of stress from an AI? The added liver stress from an AI is tiny, and I guarantee you won’t notice it. Unless you drank way too much in college and have already crippled your liver. Would you rather start with the water weight gain and then have to play catch up, or keep yourself in a better state from day 1, possibly making some small adjustments?[/quote]

^X2

I’m new to this forum as well. As far as my reading (which has been a good amount, enough to know I need to continue to learn) has allowed me to understand, Not running an AI from the start is a mistake. Why would you want to flirt with high estrogen? Gyno and puffy nips are just a few of many symptoms and the psychological symptoms are not often spoke of. Depression, fatigue, lack of motivation, no drive at all, lethargy, impotence, insomnia etc. So basically your training and cycle could go to shit.

Worried about your liver? Tylenol is much harder on your liver than an AI and people take it everyday. Alcohol too. As long as your bloodwork is good you shouldnt have a problem.

Its a low risk high reward situation. Be smart.

Or fuck take .125 of adex eod or 6.25 aromasin Ed, get blood work at 5 weeks see if you need it!!! 5 weeks of an AI isn’t gonna hurt you or hinder your gains.

Then maybe a few weeks later get E checked again and see if you still don’t need it or you do.

This and only this will tell you if you don’t need one. Until this don’t say you don’t need one