T Nation

Intergender Gagefighting Champion of the Brave New World...

http://spectator.org/archives/2013/03/08/intergender-cagefighting-champ

Just another day in Progressive World…

I believe strongly in LBGT rights but this does seem wrong.

Until they can prove they have no physical advantage over born females… this should not be allowed.

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
I believe strongly in LBGT rights but this does seem wrong.

Until they can prove they have no physical advantage over born females… this should not be allowed.[/quote]

What would it matter if the dude was weaker than the female…men are made to protect and provide, not beat up.

http://www.google.com/search?q=andy+kaufman+intergender+wrestling&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ei=IEk-UbfJC-7h0wGEsoDADw&ved=0CA0Q_AUoAQ&biw=360&bih=527

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
I believe strongly in LBGT rights but this does seem wrong.

Until they can prove they have no physical advantage over born females… this should not be allowed.[/quote]

What would it matter if the dude was weaker than the female…men are made to protect and provide, not beat up.[/quote]

It’s one of those grey areas.

Chemically she may be exactly the same as a woman due to hormone replacement therapy. And other women she fights may be using AAS (IE: Cyborg) so they have a much more manly hormone profile and probably more strength. Which is worse?

As long as she participated in hormone therapy and has had completed all sex-reassignment surgeries (IE: removal of testicles)… I don’t know if I see the issue. Her once having been a man would not stop somebody like Cyborg from smashing her face in.

I only see the issue if she has not completed the conversion. That said I do not know her history and other issues may come up.

edit: I suppose how long she has been a ‘she’ is also important.

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
I believe strongly in LBGT rights but this does seem wrong.

Until they can prove they have no physical advantage over born females… this should not be allowed.[/quote]

What would it matter if the dude was weaker than the female…men are made to protect and provide, not beat up.[/quote]

It’s one of those grey areas.

Chemically she may be exactly the same as a woman due to hormone replacement therapy. And other women she fights may be using AAS (IE: Cyborg) so they have a much more manly hormone profile and probably more strength. Which is worse?

As long as she participated in hormone therapy and has had completed all sex-reassignment surgeries (IE: removal of testicles)… I don’t know if I see the issue. Her once having been a man would not stop somebody like Cyborg from smashing her face in.

I only see the issue if she has not completed the conversion. That said I do not know her history and other issues may come up.

edit: I suppose how long she has been a ‘she’ is also important.[/quote]

There is no such thing as (s)he once being a man. He is still a man. Period. Run a DNA test. Man. Hormones or not he is still a man and has certain advantages that cutting off his twig and bitts won’t erase.

I recently went in for blood work. Test came back at 54. Thats it. I was shocked. I was still benching comfortably in the 300’s and near peak in all my lifts. Most of my friends at the gym would have bet money that I was “on”.

Do you think that the first two women that stepped into the wring with this guy only to get ko’d would have done so it they had known they were stepping into the ring with a man?

im fine with it if they exchange his y chromosome for another x

until then it’s bullshit

[quote]JEATON wrote:

There is no such thing as (s)he once being a man. He is still a man. Period. Run a DNA test. Man. [/quote]

You may say so, I may think so, and her DNA may say so… but gender identity is about more than that. If she feels she was a girl in a man’s body all along and gets sex reassignment surgery to make that a reality… I think it is only fair to call her a girl and address her as so.

From what I know this is largely determined by what age the man became a woman. For example… an 18 year old getting sex reassignment surgery (yes, it happens) would have far less advantages than a 30 year old getting sex reassignment surgery. The main advantages being denser bones and greater strength. How they lived their life as a former man would also have a good influence on that - did he lift? did he train martial arts? etc…

[quote]
I recently went in for blood work. Test came back at 54. Thats it. I was shocked. I was still benching comfortably in the 300’s and near peak in all my lifts. Most of my friends at the gym would have bet money that I was “on”.

Do you think that the first two women that stepped into the wring with this guy only to get ko’d would have done so it they had known they were stepping into the ring with a man?[/quote]

My initial reaction is a ‘no’ but it is hard to say. Her last opponent was physically imposing compared to her and was also knocked out by a born female previously. Fighting is a lot more than just strength - the argument for denser bones could be made though, I suppose.

And finally, I found more out about Fallon and it turns out she was once in the NAVY and had sex reassignment surgery when she was 30. She also did not let her opponents know about her transgender status before the fight and one has come out to say she would not have fought her.

So, no, in this case I do not think it is fine. She should have been more up front about it.

Fallon Fox, the fighter in question is the one on the LEFT. The fighter on the right is a born female and her last opponent.

(assuming no AAS/other PED’s were used)

the one on the right is a genetic freak

the one of the left is just a freak


Nevermind… she does look quite a bit bigger here.

That said… the fighter Fallon fought has some nice legs. I didn’t draw on this pic btw… they were doing comparisons on another forum I frequent.

id love to kick the shit out of that abomination

funny thing is, it’d be totally fair

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
id love to kick the shit out of that abomination

funny thing is, it’d be totally fair[/quote]

haha nah dude, you’d have to atrophy quite alot to make it to 145! :slight_smile:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
Fallon Fox, the fighter in question is the one on the LEFT. The fighter on the right is a born female and her last opponent.[/quote]

Read anything from EFS much?

I have questions about this. Given there are muscle differences in the legs and hips, arguably leading to a higher rate of knee injury in womens sports than in mens (soccer for example), I wouldn’t be so quick to say that the differences between men and women are limited to hormones.

If the hormones are different, we KNOW, not even up for debate that the musculosystems are different especially in the legs and hips, who’s to say that there aren’t more advantages or disadvantages of being a man or woman?

Do we know anything about the difference in the nervous system? This is all stuff that needs to be studied still…

Who’s to say that a straight guy can’t be allowed to take hormones and compete with women? Really, is it about horones, sex, what is it about? And why wouldn’t an otherwise normal man be disallowed from taking hormones to fight against otherwise biologically functioning, born females?

And alternatively, if women are using hormones that put them on par with men, then why not allow them to fight men? What’s the point in having mens and womens sports if it doesn’t matter what your sex is, but your hormones? Wouldn’t it mean that we just need to be blood tested and then what gender we fight in will be determined?

This is some weird stuff. That transexual should find other transexuals to fight.

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
Fallon Fox, the fighter in question is the one on the LEFT. The fighter on the right is a born female and her last opponent.[/quote]

Read anything from EFS much?

I have questions about this. Given there are muscle differences in the legs and hips, arguably leading to a higher rate of knee injury in womens sports than in mens (soccer for example), I wouldn’t be so quick to say that the differences between men and women are limited to hormones.

If the hormones are different, we KNOW, not even up for debate that the musculosystems are different especially in the legs and hips, who’s to say that there aren’t more advantages or disadvantages of being a man or woman?

Do we know anything about the difference in the nervous system? This is all stuff that needs to be studied still…

Who’s to say that a straight guy can’t be allowed to take hormones and compete with women? Really, is it about horones, sex, what is it about? And why wouldn’t an otherwise normal man be disallowed from taking hormones to fight against otherwise biologically functioning, born females?

And alternatively, if women are using hormones that put them on par with men, then why not allow them to fight men? What’s the point in having mens and womens sports if it doesn’t matter what your sex is, but your hormones? Wouldn’t it mean that we just need to be blood tested and then what gender we fight in will be determined?

This is some weird stuff. That transexual should find other transexuals to fight. [/quote]

Nope, never read anything from EFS… don’t even know what that is.

I agree it is some weird and very interesting stuff and I have many of the same questions you do. I’ve seen other places claim that men have more red blood cells, less pain receptors, etc… but I am no expert so I didn’t bring that stuff up.

I do believe it is not as black and white as some people try to make it. I’ve known very flamboyant individuals who couldn’t have fought off an average female if they wanted to… if one of them got sex reassignment surgery I seriously would not care if they tried to fight in WMMA. I would be worried about THEM not the WMMA competitor. haha

I also think women as a whole are not as feeble as tradition would like to lead us to believe. Most men without solid martial arts training would get stomped into the ground by these WMMA competitors. It doesn’t even matter if the man is an elite level powerlifter… strength is only one part of the equation and if you can’t fight… you can’t fight.

Anyway, I agree with you that this should be studied further in-depth before it is allowed. Until then all we have is knee-jerk reactions from both sides of the coin.