T Nation

Interesting Supplement Stack

I found this on another forum:

This is a pre, during and post supplement protocol that is based on many principals. I have borrowed many of these ideas from the likes of Dr. John Berardi, David Barr, Dr. Mario Pasquale, Charles Poliquin and Milos Sarcev. It is important to note that no one author endorses this entire supplement protocol and some of the authors above actually disagree with some of my recommendations, but I still feel that this is one of the best supplement protocols for increasing lean body mass.

This type of supplement protocol is different than from what most of you might have seen in various bodybuilding and power lifting magazines. I am an Industrial Technology major and not a nutritionist, so thus my engineering background is evident in my recommendations.

Everything is based for maximum protein synthesis, glycogen replenishment and synergism. I do not make recommendations for ?NO pumpy? products or large amounts of L-Glutamine as they are not needed in this form of supplement protocol. In designing this program, it was made for someone who likes to lift and whose goal is something to the effect of being the biggest, strongest, fastest and best that they can be.

The ratio of supplements below is for an Elite weightlifter that has approximately 255 pounds of lean body mass. An Elite weightlifter defined by Zatsiorsky, is someone whose average training volume is between 20-50 tons a day or 2,000-5,000 tons a year (Zatsiorsky, 1995, p.92).

To put that in perspective, if your training volume is on the high side of Zatsiorsky?s definition then you will have moved 50,000,000 pounds of pig iron in 5 years of training. Add on a few more years and that is equivalent to moving the weight of an American World War II battleship.

If you need to figure out your LBM here is a simple example. If you weigh 200 and have 10% body fat then you have 180 pounds of lean body mass. After you find your lean body mass use a quadratic equation to determine the proper ratio of each supplement for your bodyweight.

45 minutes prior to workout
-2 Spike Pills or 1 serving Power Drive + 7 grams Acetyl L- Carnitine

These supplements are used to enhance nuro-drive during the workout and reduce mental fatigue as you train. They are taken 45 minuets prior to the workout so they can be assimilated by the time you start your workout. I rotate the two products in a one month on one month off protocol to avoid adrenal fatigue.

The Spike pills have caffeine in them and I do not like to take caffeine year round as it becomes tough on the adrenals. If you stay on caffeine for too long of a time you also start to become addicted to it and it then becomes a training crutch, this is another reason why I only take caffeine for one month at a time.

Power Drive is a caffeine free mental stimulant and works equally well when taken in conjunction with the Acetyl L-Carnitine. Some of the ingredients in Power Drive also helps your CNS to recover faster which is important due to the fact that the CNS can take up to 3 times longer to recover than the muscles when extreme training techniques are used such as Maximal Eccentrics.

25 minutes prior to workout:
-4 grams Kre-Alkalyn, 7 grams Ribose and 2.25 grams Beta Alanine

These supplements work together in a synergistic form. Many studies have shown the advantages of taking creatine and ribose together or taking creatine and Beta Alanine, but when you take all three together it is amazing. I prefer the Kre-Alkalyn version of creatine due to the fact that I have taken regular creatine on and off for 5 years and I personally feel that creatine slowly looses it?s effectiveness after you continually use it.

To my knowledge there is no proof of this, it is just my opinion after years of personal analysis and contact with fellow trainers. This stack is taken for a one month period and then followed by two months off. The advantages of creatine supplementation will continue for around another month after you stop taking it.

I also take an additional dose of Bata Alanine in the morning before I eat, which gives me a total of 6.75 grams of Bata Alanine a day when I train twice a day.

1 minute prior to workout:
-8 grams BCAA

Branch Chain Amino Acids are taken to stop the conversion of tryptophan to 5-HTP by increasing the BCAA plasma content and thus reducing the uptake of tryptophan which slows down the synthesis of 5-hydroxytryptamine (5HTP). 5-HTP is the chemical that has been linked to mental or central fatigue that occurs between 45 and 60 minutes into the workout.

There are many other advantages to taking BCAA?s such as the anabolic effects of Lucine, to the Glutamine sparing effects of BCAAs. I however, primarily take BCAAs to reduce mental fatigue.

During workout:
-Blend of Sodium Bicarbinate/ Di-basic Potassium Phosphate

I recommend a blend and not an actual amount as some people can take substantially more than others. The amount that you will take depends on your body and training program you are on. Sodium Bicarbonate helps to reduce the lactic acid buildup while you train. When the PH of the blood is lower, ATP production remains higher.

I flavor the ingredients with some sugar free, calorie free Cristal Light powder. Having flavored water will generally also allow you to consume more water while you are training and thus avoid dehydration. The stack above does not contain any calories, which is an advantage for a dieting bodybuilder. If you are just performing singles or doubles with long rest intervals then this supplement is not truly needed.

15 minutes after the workout:
-Consume 22 grams of Essential Amino Acids

EAA?s are absorbed and deliver their full amino acid profile in only 45 minutes. The only thing faster is Peptide Bonded Amino Acids which are very expensive and generally do not lab out that great. Peptide Bonded Amino Acids are also absorbed so fast that if additional protein is not ingested a negative protein balance can occur later on [10].

EEA?s fast speed of absorption along with various studies have shown a greater amount of muscle mass gained in both pre and post workout supplementation over a similar amount of conventional whey protein. The increase results range form 200-600 percent increase over a congenital whey protein powder in Pre and Post studies. [1], [2], [3], [4].

It is important that you wait 15 minuets to 1 hour after the end of your workout to ingest your 1st supplement drink as better gains are available if you wait than if you drink your shake directly after the workout [5], [7]. No one knows exactly why it is better to wait at lest 15 minuets after your workout ends to ingest your first shake; they just know that it works better.

To my knowledge there have been no other studies that compared different time periods after the workout to ingest the first shake.

30 minutes after the workout
-Consume 60 grams Whey Protein Hydroslate, 60 grams of carbs from fruit juice, 40 grams Vitargo, 4 grams Taurine, and 750mg K-R-ALA.

WPH is the fastest absorbing form of the Whey family [9]. It delivers the full amino acid profile in 80 minutes and is the least allergenic form of whey protein as it has already gone through an enzyme bath and is partially pre-digested. WPH also contains virtually no fat, lactose, and cholesterol.

Since I train twice a day it is very important to get the majority of my carbs post workout so I can have a productive second workout. Insulin sensitivity is also much greater post workout, ?although it does stay high for 24 hours? and that is another reason why I like to get most of my carbs within the first few hours of my workout as this works better for my body type.

The total amount of carbs ingested between shake 2 and 3 is derived from your lean body weight and total amount of reps in your workout, ?not counting warm up reps.? The amount of carbs in the chart below is for identifying how many carbs to ingest according to the total amount of reps done in the workout and your lean body mass.

This chart came from Charles Poliquin and Dr. Pasquale and the work they conducted with their many Olympic and Professional Athletes. Find the total amount and then divide that dosage by two and take half of the carbs in the first shake and half in the second shake.

12-72 reps per workout: 0.6 g/kg/LBM
73-200 reps per workout: 0.8 g/kg/LBM
200-360 reps per workout: 1.0 g/kg/LBM
360-450 reps per workout: 1.2 g/kg/LBM

If you are not training twice a day or lifting weights in the AM and practicing a sport in the PM then getting the majority of your carbs in a short time frame after your training is not that important as insulin sensitivity are increased for 24 hours after your workout [6], [8].

If your body is similar to mine and does best with the majority of the carbs, ?40% of my daily carbohydrate intake is taken within two hours after each workout? ingested post workout, then it still becomes important to have carbohydrates post workout.

Some studies do contradict the 24 hour time period results though, but this is likely due to the fact that the studies did not use dedicated weight lifters or the training program was not difficult enough. I like to use some from of fruit juice post workout as it helps to improve the taste of the WPH.

The fruit juice is also a nutritionally dense food, when compared to maltodextrin and dextrose and thus has some added benefit. I rotate the juice that is consumed post workout in order to reduce the likely hood of becoming allergic to any one particular juice.

I personally like to rotate between Apple juice and Grapefruit juice and do so after I consume a gallon of it over X amount of training days. The grape fruit juice has the advantage of having various enzymes that block cytochrome P-450. Some studies have shown that it blocks up to 85% of the cytochrome P-450 [13].

This is why some doctors do not recommend taking medicine with grapefruit juice as it drastically increases the drugs potency, due to the fact that the drugs are not destroyed by the liver as much. This of course can also carry over to nutritional supplements, but don?t try it with drugs as it can be dangerous.

I also like to use Vitargo, ?Waximaize? due to how fast it travels through the stomach and refills glycogen levels [16]. Another advantage to using two separate carbohydrate sources is that you are more likely to utilize all the carbohydrates as each carbohydrate source is slightly different and is absorbed and assimilated by slightly different pathways and chemical processes [11].

K-R-ALA is also taken at this time as it is a great glucose disposal agent. When combined with the WPH and vitargo you can actually feel the speed of absorption within the body. My blood sugar level is generally between 83-87 points 15 minutes after the second shake.

75 minutes after the workout
-Take a second shake containing 40 grams WPH, 30 grams of carbs from fruit or fruit juice, 40 grams Vitargo, 1 gram Gymnema Sylvestre, 1 gram Fenugreek, 1 gram Banana Fruit Extract.

The second WPH/Carb mix is based off some of the latest literature and studies that show a double shake protocol is superior to a single large shake [10]. One gram of Gymnema Sylvestre, Fenugreek, and Banana Fruit Extract are all taken with the second shake.

All three of the above supplements are glucose disposal agents and work synergistically to improve glucose uptake. If you do not use the glucose disposal agents then the likely hood of the carbohydrates making you sluggish increases. My personal blood sugar averages between 77-80 points 15 minutes after the third shake.

Some individuals might think that the total protein intake of the three shakes in a two hour period is too high. If you think this amount of protein might be too high for you and your body type after you have adjusted the total intake to your lean body mass, then be sure and purchase some urine nitrogen test strips.

I suggest starting at 100 grams of total protein a day and increasing it by 25 grams a day until there is an excessive reading on the test strips. This will give you your total amount of protein that your body can assimilate in a given day. You should then follow the same protocol for your post workout supplement program by starting at 50 grams of protein and increasing the amount in 25 gram intervals.

In my opinion this is one of the most complete pre, during and post supplementation protocol at this point and time for improving lean body mass. The reason being that, this supplement protocol covers multiple variables at correct time intervals and does not just concentrate on an excessive amount of calories like other supplement programs.

This supplement protocol is not set in stone and will continually evolve as new studies and information are introduced. If you are thinking of using this supplement protocol and are not a serious weight lifter, then you are just wasting your time and money. If you have never heard of training techniques like German Volume Training, Conjugate Periodization, Escalating Density Training, Cluster Training, Doubles, Uni-Angular Tri-Sets, Dynamic training, 4-5% Solution, Wave Loading, Stage System, Multi-Grip Multi Pathway and the Mechanical Advantage Extended System then this supplement protocol is probably over your head.

The same goes if you haven?t heard of Charles Poliquin, Christian Thibaudeau, Charles Staley, Ian King, Vladimir Zatsiorsky, Chad Waterbury, Dave Tate, Louie Simmons and Verkhoshansky just to name a few. If you are going to follow this supplement protocol I suggest you gradually work your way up to a macronutrient level that suits you.

Some might think from my writing that I feel nutrition is the most important part of the weightlifting equation, but I feel that 80% of your gains in body mass and strength come from training and not your nutrition habits. Nutrition does, however, play a significantly greater role when the goal is to reduce body fat and maintain or gain muscle mass.

Just look at all the football and basketball players at the college level who eat nothing but starchy carbs and gatorade and can still kick ass in the gym and on the field. What they do is OUT TRAIN their diet.

Another good example of someone who out trained their diet is Dave Tate from Elite Lifts. Dave routinely ate 10,000 calories a day from total crap. Here were his nutritional food breakdown, ?Dave ate around 10,500 calories today with around 450g of fat (38%), around 1450g of carbs (54%), and around 190g of protein (7%). And this was a “good” day (Berardi, 2006).?

Even with Dave?s nutritional habits he still weighed in the low 300?s and held a lot of muscle mass and was one strong man totaling over 2100 at his prime. If you just look at the supplement protocol and not the other meals you might think that it is not well rounded as 4 high calorie shakes will be taken when training twice per day, but it is important to look at weekly nutritional intakes and not just daily.

On non training days total carbohydrate intake is around 200 grams coming primarily from vegetables and legumes. The carbohydrates are also spread evenly throughout the day. No shakes are ingested on non training days and all 300 grams of protein comes form solid food.

A higher fat intake is also ingested on non training days with a blend of fish oil, flaxseed powder, and borage oil. Total calories for non training days per week, ?three days per week? are around 2,900. When you combine the 7 daily nutritional amounts, I ingest 22,920 calories in a week or an average of 3,274 a day.

The weekly nutritional stats when averaging training and non training days are 40% (9,360 calories or 2,340g) protein, 25% (5,400 calories or 600g) fat and 35% (8,160 calories or 2,040) carbs. This ratio has worked well for approximately the last year.

[1] Adibi, S., Gary, S., Menden, E. (1967). The kinetics of amino acid absorption and alteration of plasma composition of free amino acids after intestinal perfusion of amino acid mixtures. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 20, 24-33.

[2] Tipton, K., Ferrando, A., Phillips, S., Doyle, D. & Wolfe, R. (1999). Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. The American Journal of Physiology, 276(4), E628-E634

[3] Rasmussen, B., Tipton, K., Miller, S., Wolf, S. & Wolfe, R. (2000). An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances protein anabolism after resistance exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology, 88, 386-392.

[4] Biolo, G., S.P. Maggi, B.D. Williams, K.D. Tipton, and R.R. Wolfe. Increased rates of muscle protein turnover and amino acid transport after resistance exercise in humans. Am. J. Physiol. 268:E214-E220, 1995

[5] Tipton KD, Borsheim E, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR. Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h balance after exercise and amino acid ingestion. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Jan;284(1):E76-89.

[6] Pascoe DD, Costill DL, Fink WJ, Robergs RA, Zachwieja JJ. Glycogen resynthesis in skeletal muscle following resistive exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1993 Mar;25(3):349-

[7] Rasmussen, BB, Tipton KD, Miller SL, Wolf SE, and Wolfe RR. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 88: 386-392, 2000

[8] Koopman R, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Hul GB, Kuipers H, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ. A single session of resistance exercise enhances insulin sensitivity for at least 24 h in healthy men. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2005 May;94(1-2):180-7.

[9] Calbet JA, MacLean DA. Plasma glucagon and insulin responses depend on the rate of appearance of amino acids after ingestion of different protein solutions in humans. J Nutr. 2002 Aug;132(8):2174-82.

[10] Borsheim E, Tipton KD, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Oct;283(4):E648-57.

[11] Roy Jentjens and colleagues at the University of Birmingham 2004 ACSM Conference I: Glucose Oxidation and Endurance Exercise Abstract # 0151

[13] Krausz, K.W., Goldfarb, I., Buters, J.T.M, Yang, T.J., Gonzalez, F.J. and Gelboin, H.V.: Monoclonal antibodies specific and inhibitory to human cytochromes P450 2C8, 2C9 and 2C19. Drug Metab. Dispos. 29: 1410-1423, 2001.

[14] Berardi, J. (2006). The Dave Tate Project, Part 1: Retrieved from the World Wide Web: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=971737

[15] Zatsiorsky V. (1995). Science and Practice of Strength Training: Human Kinetics IL.

[16] European Journal of Applied Physiology. Volume 81 Issue 4 (2000) pages 346-351 : Muscle glycogen resynthesis rate in humans after supplementation of drinks containing carbohydrates with low and high molecular masses,

[quote]Jason32 wrote:
Another advantage to using two separate carbohydrate sources is that you are more likely to utilize all the carbohydrates as each carbohydrate source is slightly different and is absorbed and assimilated by slightly different pathways and chemical processes.


not directed at the OP, or wait is it? who is the OP? anyway, whoever came up with that has stretched some of references. they do not necessarily apply to the case they are being used to support.

i think the person is probably a little OCD. i think that it is better to build one’s supplement regime around your own needs. this will vary even with the same person over time, so how can it be the ultimate plan?

if you want to jack up muscle gain, follow Berardi’s 7 habits and take BCAA between every meal. add in a couple supps like BETA-7 and you are probably getting the same results as the over the top plan.

Yeah, when I read this plan I thought damn, that’s a big chunk of change to lay down.