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Insulin Use During Bulk

I have been reading all I can on insulin use and I am thinking of using it during my winter bulking cycle. I first want to run my dosing protocol across the vets to get some opinons. I understand this can be lethal if mishandled so I will be purchasing a glucometer and taking the proper precautions.

I plan on using Novolog 5xweek PWO injected subQ for a period of 3-4 weeks during my use of test/tren/dbol. I will start at 2iu a day and work my way up to 8iu. I have read some theories of using slin with all meals but PWO is the most common protocol I have found.

My post injection and PWO nutrition will consist of at least 15 grams high GI carbs per 1 iu of insulin along with 40 grams of protein. I will consume this every 45 minutes following my injection for about 3-4 hours.
My main questions are:

1)If I weigh between 235-250lbs will 8 iu/day be enough?

2)What dosing protocols have been used by individuals in the past and what results did they yield (size + strength)?

3)Is the duration of use long enough to make a noticable difference to my cycle, yet is it short enough to prevent permanent changes in my natural insulin sensitivity?
Thank you for all input.

Bump. I know we got some experienced vets here who know all about insulin.

I haven’t seen a lot of people on this site talk much about insulin use. You might check out the Meso site, I think they have a big “stickyed” insulin post.

As the father of a Type 1 diabetic son, I can tell you that while weight comes into play, there really isn’t a set scale for what works. Everyone has a different sensitivity to insulin. So while I am certainly not recommending you use it I’d suggest you do as you mentioned…start low and work your way up.

The dosage you eventually end up using will have more to do with your carb intake than your weight. You may find that 4-5 IU is all you need to get the desired effect.

Things to keep in mind:
As you’ve already said, it’s dangerous. I’m around it all the time and have all I could possibly want to use, but can’t bring myself to try. Be sure to notify training partners, family, friends,coworkers, whoever is going to be around you for the administration and the following hour or two what you are doing in case of a severe low. You can’t hide it from anyone. Don’t administer and drive or take a nap. Be very careful and good luck.

Err on the side of too low a dose at first and work your way up. Many people start at 2IU, and increase 1IU a day until they get to the desired dosage. Optimal dosage is very variable from one person to the next. Carry honey and a glucometer with you everywhere you go.

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

I’m not convinced that PWO is the optimum time to use it since the majority of your simple carbs will likely be injested then anyway and this should be more than enough to trigger the bodys own insulin response to achieve glycogen replenishment.

Bushy[/quote]

In a previous thread you stated that you thought taking insulin in the morning along with adequate carbs and protein produced better results,i.e. more energy and greater pumps during workout. I am assuming that you have also ran the standard PWO insulin and it had a lessor effect. Could you expand on the results +/- that you received from both ways.

Honestly the AM insulin use may work out better in my lifting and eating schedule. My heavy workouts (bench/squat/deads and maybe shoulders) are the days that I plan on using the slin. All of these workouts (except shoulders) occur at 7:00pm. I dont get done until app. 8:15-8:30pm. It is my understanding to never sleep with extra insulin in your system, to avoid coma/death ect. The novolog should be completly cleared in 4 hours, so I couldn’t go to bed until 12:30. :frowning: If I were to use PWO insulin I would have to change my entire lifting schedule.

[quote]InTheZone wrote:
Maybe you could keep a log, since endeavors like the one you are embarking on, are far and few and would be very interesting to read about by many here probably…

                              ToneBone[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing Tone. I have been planning this cycle for about half a year. Never before have I used this amount of test/tren/dbol. I was also thinking of using both IGF/MGF during cycle as well. Throw in 3-4 weeks of insulin use and I have quite the cycle planned out.

I still have lots of learning and planning ahead of myself before anything is set in stone. But if all works out according to planned I hope to gain some serious size and strength while smashing all of my previous PRs. The log may also prove helpful to myself as I can ask any questions or mention any sides and get help from all the knowledgable vets here.

This will be new ground for myself but I want to do it right, and take all proper precautions. I still have 7 weeks until I plan to start, at that point I will have been clean of AAS for 20 weeks and be more the ready to hit it hard.

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[quote]roofus_5 wrote:
I haven’t seen a lot of people on this site talk much about insulin use. You might check out the Meso site, I think they have a big “stickyed” insulin post.

[/quote]

Thanks Roofus, that was a very informative thread. Good read for sure.

Starting out with 2iu and going from there, is a good idea. At first I would keep the carbs on the high side to be safe, but after you work your way up and get used to it you shouldn’t need 500 grams of simple carbs or whatver 15g/iu every 45 min works out to. You can use less and still get good anabolic effect without getting fat or causing your body to release a ton more insulin and raise your chances of insulin resistance.

You also shouldn’t need all simple carbs, your insulin is already spiked right? You just spiked it with a needle. Just make sure they don’t take too long to digest or it won’t keep up with the fast insulin.

It’s impossible to say if 8iu is “enough”. You just have to experiment and see. You could probably even work up to 20-30 3-4 times a week for 28 days or so. You might as well hit it hard and then get out and take some time off right? As far as taking it first thing in the morning, that works too, but post workout should be better. Both works well. You can also take pre-workout and that might be best for your schedule, but don’t do that untill you know exactly what you are doing and how you will react.

I’ve done that in conjuntion with pwo shots and didn’t see much boost during the workout so I didn’t try it more than a couple of times but I’ve heard good things as far as gains from pre-workout only.
I’ve tried working up to 10iu morning and pwo on training day, 10iu on first off day and then off second off day,then training day starts over again with 2xd. I did this for two weeks and then did two weeks 10iu morning and 10iu post workout/afternoon every day for two weeks. Nothing else at that time and I gained about 10 pounds in that month. My stomach was kind of getting bloated and blurry so I stopped at a month.

I kept about 7 pounds and I think what I lost was sq water because my midsection tightened up quick after I went off, with no diet changes. That was with Humulin-R Somewhat recently I did a Humalog and Test Susp cycle. I did 30iu on training day, 10 morning, 10 pwo, 10 4 hours later, 10iu on first day off, and none second day off, then start over again with training day(training every third day). The TNE was 700mg/wk. I did this for 25 days. Again I gained about ten pounds but I would have expected more.

I guess there is a diminishing response. Maybe I was getting resistant, but fasting glucose was always around 100. Lately I just use 10iu pwo and maybe the next day so 10iu 4-5 days a week. I really don’t know if it’s doing much anymore so I might go off for awhile and take an OGTT(Oral Glucose Tolerance Test). Or try taking Avandia.

I don’t think shutting down your own production is a big risk, I think the biggest danger(besides dying or going into a coma a few hours after injecting) is long term insulin resistance from long term use. Not much research or documented experience exists for healthy people using exogenous insulin. I think you could get pretty good results though from using it for a month and then taking at least a month off before going on again and there shouldn’t be much danger.

I recomend taking fasting blood suger levels before you start and several times during the cycle and an OGTT before and after to see how your body reacted. Hope this helps, Good Luck!(Sorry for the Long-Ass post)

[quote] I don’t think shutting down your own production is a big risk, I think the biggest danger(besides dying or going into a coma a few hours after injecting) is long term insulin resistance from long term use. Not much research or documented experience exists for healthy people using exogenous insulin. I think you could get pretty good results though from using it for a month and then taking at least a month off before going on again and there shouldn’t be much danger. [quote]

I agree, especially with not shutting down insulin production. Type 1 diabetes is caused by the body attacking the beta cells in the pancreas and killing them off, thus ending insulin production. Almost similar to a body rejecting a transplanted organ.

Thanks for all the info guys. Due to my schedule and 1 Bushy suggestion I will be taking the insulin in the AM on my heavy training days 4x a week. This way I will not have to worry about falling asleep and can check my glucose levels frequently. My post injection diet will be lots of kool-aid with creatine and BCAAs, whey protein shakes and turkey sandwiches for about 3 hours after the novolog.

I know that insulin will supersaturate my muscles with nutrients which I am hoping will lead to improved performance in my workouts and in conjunction with my AAS cycle provide additional weight gain. I know Prezel Logic gave me some actual numbers but can others maybe share some of their results from previous insulin use so I know what to expect.

I know everyone will respond different, but I am brand new to this so I am wondering what I should be feeling during insulin use.

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Disclaimer: A “chemical noob” question.

Why would injecting insulin cause more muscle growth if it’s not PWO? Since insulin is also a fat storing hormone, wouldn’t it just act the same as eating an insulin spiking meal?

I’m not questioning you guys, but am genuinely curious.

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[quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
Disclaimer: A “chemical noob” question.

Why would injecting insulin cause more muscle growth if it’s not PWO? Since insulin is also a fat storing hormone, wouldn’t it just act the same as eating an insulin spiking meal?

I’m not questioning you guys, but am genuinely curious.[/quote]

The morning is a good time because your body is ready and primed for some good nutrition after an overnight fast. It’s just more insulin in a short amount of time forcefeeding more nutrients into the muscles(hopefully) causing an anabolic/anti-catabolic response. For most people, even ones with good insulin sensitivity, just eating, it’s hard to spike insulin high enough to to make you go hypoglycemic, but it’s easy with injectable insulin. This extreme nutrient shuttling is anabolic. That’s why I like Humalog and don’t understand the use of long acting insulin for bodybuilding. But then, I am not an expert.

[quote]Pretzel Logic wrote:
That’s why I like Humalog and don’t understand the use of long acting insulin for bodybuilding. But then, I am not an expert.[/quote]

I agree, it just makes sense to use the fastest acting insulin available for these purposes. I was reading on a diabetic website and thought that it mentioned novolog as being the fastest acting insulin. It is supposed to be active from 15 minutes to about 3-3.5 hours. I haven’t ordered any insulin yet as I understand that its shelf life is rather short (1 month), so I won’t order until it is about time to use.
When it comes to the fastest acting insulin I very well could be wrong, so if I am please someone call me out on it. I will reread some of the insulin profiles and see if I can answer my own question. Thanks

I got one more question that I have been debating. I have decided on going with the AM insulin routine and want to focus the benefits around my three heaviest days of lifting. My question is do I use the insulin the morning prior to my PM heavy workout or would I use the slin on the morning following my PM heavy workout? Again thanks to all.

I think Novalog is pretty much the same as Humalog, just one is make by NovoNordisk and one by Lilly, the two big insulin makers. I don’t think there is a faster insulin. If you are going to do it in the morning,then I guess it makes sense to do it the morning after working out for recovery and growth.