Today will be my first day using a pancake concoction I made using sweet potatoes, whey, eggs, and a little sugar. we’ll see what happens.
I’ve always found that having large amounts of carbs post workout make me add fat quickly. Now, I will usually have ~20g of protein when I get home just to blunt the hunger and then have a P/F meal about 45-60 mins later. I’ve been able to consistently add weight with no noticeable fat gain following this approach. CT doesn’t recommend something similar for no reason, my friends!
Really seems to work better.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Why does muscle need to soak up glucose anyway? Did you just run a marathon? Im assuming most people here are talking about what they should do after a simple 45-90 minute workout. Who’s draining their glycogen stores in that amount of time? [/quote]
This is what I wanted to hear… quite bluntly.
Thanks for everyone’s input.
[/quote]
My pre workout meal carbs? Preferably pasta or potatoes. But usually oatmeal for the convenience. Cold cereal like cheerios if all else fails.
During my workout I use gatorade powder or kool-aid powder if I fuck up royally and forget to buy gatorade. Every intra-workout supplement Biotest makes is better than my approach but it’s either Surge or meth and meth is a helluva drug… naa mean
But because catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin in the blood during a workout, why the insulin spike? Most nutrient transport during exercise is contraction stimulated and insulin independent, which I think is the theory behind Thibs concentric only recovery workouts. Like you said Bonez, carbs aren’t going to be the limiting factor in an anaerobic workout, so I’m not sure I follow the reasoning.
I don’t know that there’s anything detrimental about it, but it just seems like it would be more important to have circulating amino acids than glucose/insulin.
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
But because catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin in the blood during a workout, why the insulin spike? Most nutrient transport during exercise is contraction stimulated and insulin independent, which I think is the theory behind Thibs concentric only recovery workouts. Like you said Bonez, carbs aren’t going to be the limiting factor in an anaerobic workout, so I’m not sure I follow the reasoning. [/quote]
Twisting words or misunderstanding.
First explain how catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin. I never said that.
I also never said that carbs arent going to be a limiting factor while working out. I said glycogen replenishment is an overrated reason. Having carbs before a workout enhances performace, there’s no doubt about that.
It seems like you are thinking of this stuff by assuming a result and attempting to find a reason to get to that result. Making too many assumptions along the way.
[quote]
I don’t know that there’s anything detrimental about it, but it just seems like it would be more important to have circulating amino acids than glucose/insulin.[/quote]
Ingesting protein will spike insulin as well. It is impossible to eat protein and not see a change in insulin levels.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
But because catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin in the blood during a workout, why the insulin spike? Most nutrient transport during exercise is contraction stimulated and insulin independent, which I think is the theory behind Thibs concentric only recovery workouts. Like you said Bonez, carbs aren’t going to be the limiting factor in an anaerobic workout, so I’m not sure I follow the reasoning. [/quote]
Twisting words or misunderstanding.
First explain how catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin. I never said that.
I also never said that carbs arent going to be a limiting factor while working out. I said glycogen replenishment is an overrated reason. Having carbs before a workout enhances performace, there’s no doubt about that.
It seems like you are thinking of this stuff by assuming a result and attempting to find a reason to get to that result. Making too many assumptions along the way.
[quote]
I don’t know that there’s anything detrimental about it, but it just seems like it would be more important to have circulating amino acids than glucose/insulin.[/quote]
Ingesting protein will spike insulin as well. It is impossible to eat protein and not see a change in insulin levels. [/quote]
Easy man. I know protein can be insulinogenic. What I was suggesting is that protein ingestion before a workout is beneficial for increasing circulating AA’s. I didn’t say that you said catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin, I was just stating that as a fact. Look up catecholamines and insulin inhibition and specifically epinephrine’s role.
I wasn’t trying to twist your words on replenishment. It seems that it would go hand in hand that if there’s very little need for replenishment (I agree, there’s not), then there’s not significant depletion. I was getting more at the relatively small contribution to energy substrate that preworkot carbs will have.
I didn’t make a hell of a lot of assumptions, I asked a question based on the physiological mechanisms. My question was why it’s beneficial to spike insulin, given the mechanisms at play during exercise. I’m not saying I know everything about it, which is why I asked the question.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]wfifer wrote:
This kind of thinking is really myopic. Blunted insulin response, so what? Muscle doesn’t need insulin post-workout to soak up glucose. So I hardly see any of this as an argument against post-workout carbs. I’ve heard that insulin interferes with the CNS, which is enough of a reason not to have my carbs pre-workout. It’s late, but I’m sure I can find a references tomorrow if need be. [/quote]
Have you tried both approaches?
If insulin isnt going to spike immediately post workout what good is having simple carbs floating around in the body? The whole point of the old theory was that the simple carbs were necessary to spike insulin so nutrients could be shuttled to muscle for recovery. The people (Biotest) who designed one of the first “post workout carb/protein recovery drinks” are now recommending that that same product is best used before and/or during the workout.
Again, have you tried both approaches to this? [/quote]
I have, I’ve really tried it every which way. Both Surge products before and after, ANACONDA, the full protocol, I’ve given it all a test run. The fact of the matter is I perform a hell of a lot better when I’ve had no carbs before my workout. I honestly don’t eat much all day leading up to my workout, comparatively speaking.
At first with the whole ANACONDA Protocol, I did feel strong, I assume because of all the extra water being pulled into the muscles. But I quickly found that my heavy lifts were suffering because I couldn’t focus or my nervous system wasn’t firing on all cylinders (insulin spike); and my assistance/isolation stuff was suffering because I was getting burnt out and my gut wasn’t happy.
You’re probably right in thinking that there’s no reason to rush to refill glycogen. I don’t. I actually use maltodextrin and a scoop of my remaining ANACONDA stock during my workout, but I start it 15 minutes in. I avoid excessive insulin messing with getting “in the zone,” while presumably still getting the benefits of all the performance-enhancing compounds in ANACONDA. From my understanding, you don’t need much insulin to increase amino acid uptake in muscle, and anyway the entire point of using casein hydrolysate is to induce hyperaminoacidemia, not necessarily hyperinsulinemia.
My current theory is that those whose physiology handles carbs “better” will benefit from carbs pre-workout, while the rest of us should stick to the tried and true post-workout window. Having something during the workout would probably be beneficial for both groups.
If anyone sees any obvious holes in this line of thinking, feel free to chime in. I think most of us need to admit that we don’t understand any of this that well and are really just attempting to re-synthesize (or at worst regurgitate) second-hand information.
I’ve honestly never heard of someone having issues with pre workout carbs. Going so far as to say it hindered your workout? That’s just downright strange.
[quote]wfifer wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]wfifer wrote:
This kind of thinking is really myopic. Blunted insulin response, so what? Muscle doesn’t need insulin post-workout to soak up glucose. So I hardly see any of this as an argument against post-workout carbs. I’ve heard that insulin interferes with the CNS, which is enough of a reason not to have my carbs pre-workout. It’s late, but I’m sure I can find a references tomorrow if need be. [/quote]
Have you tried both approaches?
If insulin isnt going to spike immediately post workout what good is having simple carbs floating around in the body? The whole point of the old theory was that the simple carbs were necessary to spike insulin so nutrients could be shuttled to muscle for recovery. The people (Biotest) who designed one of the first “post workout carb/protein recovery drinks” are now recommending that that same product is best used before and/or during the workout.
Again, have you tried both approaches to this? [/quote]
I have, I’ve really tried it every which way. Both Surge products before and after, ANACONDA, the full protocol, I’ve given it all a test run. The fact of the matter is I perform a hell of a lot better when I’ve had no carbs before my workout. I honestly don’t eat much all day leading up to my workout, comparatively speaking.
At first with the whole ANACONDA Protocol, I did feel strong, I assume because of all the extra water being pulled into the muscles. But I quickly found that my heavy lifts were suffering because I couldn’t focus or my nervous system wasn’t firing on all cylinders (insulin spike); and my assistance/isolation stuff was suffering because I was getting burnt out and my gut wasn’t happy.
You’re probably right in thinking that there’s no reason to rush to refill glycogen. I don’t. I actually use maltodextrin and a scoop of my remaining ANACONDA stock during my workout, but I start it 15 minutes in. I avoid excessive insulin messing with getting “in the zone,” while presumably still getting the benefits of all the performance-enhancing compounds in ANACONDA. From my understanding, you don’t need much insulin to increase amino acid uptake in muscle, and anyway the entire point of using casein hydrolysate is to induce hyperaminoacidemia, not necessarily hyperinsulinemia.
My current theory is that those whose physiology handles carbs “better” will benefit from carbs pre-workout, while the rest of us should stick to the tried and true post-workout window. Having something during the workout would probably be beneficial for both groups.
If anyone sees any obvious holes in this line of thinking, feel free to chime in. I think most of us need to admit that we don’t understand any of this that well and are really just attempting to re-synthesize (or at worst regurgitate) second-hand information.
[/quote]
Fair enough. Personal experience and preference is all that matters.
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
But because catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin in the blood during a workout, why the insulin spike? Most nutrient transport during exercise is contraction stimulated and insulin independent, which I think is the theory behind Thibs concentric only recovery workouts. Like you said Bonez, carbs aren’t going to be the limiting factor in an anaerobic workout, so I’m not sure I follow the reasoning. [/quote]
Twisting words or misunderstanding.
First explain how catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin. I never said that.
I also never said that carbs arent going to be a limiting factor while working out. I said glycogen replenishment is an overrated reason. Having carbs before a workout enhances performace, there’s no doubt about that.
It seems like you are thinking of this stuff by assuming a result and attempting to find a reason to get to that result. Making too many assumptions along the way.
Im still not understanding the “inhibit the presence of insulin.”
What exactly do you mean by that?
He’s suggesting that since catecholamines inhibit the presence of insulin, what’s the point of spiking insulin ahead of time if it’s simply going to be “supressed” when catecholamines are released.
My understanding is that the catecholamines will be supressed due to insulin already being high, allowing you to train harder, longer and maintain a more favorable environment while training. It also doesn’t hurt that the carbs are going to be used for fuel during intense lifting sessions as well so that there IS no need for glycogen replenishment.
Also, with respect to the ANACONDA Protocol. I felt the same way while trying to eat all of those FINiBARs. Surge Workout Fuel as a replacement works MUCH better in my opinion.
I guess Im having trouble seeing how “inhibiting the presence” and “supressing” are the same thing. IF that is what is trying to be said.
Well, me and my training partner did the whole carb thing before the workout (65g carbs before, and 65g during) and it was great!
I used to do that before and completely forgot how much better my workouts were (more drive/intensiveness, stronger…or at least felt stronger, much more pumped, better endurance etc).
Oh, and the carb source was glucose syrup - shock horror! (let’s have a two page debate about how fat I’m gonna get? lol)
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I guess Im having trouble seeing how “inhibiting the presence” and “supressing” are the same thing. IF that is what is trying to be said. [/quote]
Well it actually does both. Catecholamines inhibit release at the pancreas and also suppress action at the cell. And I don’t think that having high insulin to begin with will blunt catecholamine relsease, which you wouldn’t want anyway. Intense exercise will stimulate a sympathetic response which will release catecholamines. And for the most part, the main substrate used during exercise will be ATP-PCr, so I’m still trying to understand why the pre-exercise insulin spike has been so recommended. I’m not discounting people’s individual success with it, I’m just trying to understand the mechanisms.
EDIT: by “exercise” I was referring to anaerobic exercise. things of course change with aerobic exercise.
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
It sounds like you only have a piece of the puzzle. I’m also sure that there is a reason some people seem to find so much success with spiking insulin pre-workout. I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I’ve honestly never heard of someone having issues with pre workout carbs. Going so far as to say it hindered your workout? That’s just downright strange.[/quote]
I’ve heard from enough sources about more of a meat and nuts type of meal pre-workout to think it’s not particularly strange. I mean, regardless of where you used to put your carb meals, this whole idea of spiking insulin to very high levels immediately pre-workout has only come into favor recently. My choice to save all my carbs for meals falling after my workout is a separate issue.
It’s been stated why post-workout carbs aren’t necessary. That’s fine, like I said, I don’t generally use them immediately post-workout. I have a gigantic mixed meal between the 1- and 2-hour marks post-workout. Lipogenesis is hampered (second-hand info, I admit) and I just worked my ass off, so it seems like a good time to pig out and get in 1/3 or more of my calories for the day. This is also why I have no issue with adding some simple carbs during or even post-workout–lipogenesis is not going to happen. If it’s not going to be stored as fat, why not get in the extra calories.
Maybe pre-workout carbs aren’t a bad idea. I can’t seem to find the references I’m looking for on that front. But why are they a good idea? What’s the point of spiking insulin so high? The notion that spiking insulin post-workout isn’t necessary doesn’t imply that doing so pre-workout is beneficial.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.
EDIT: That sounded like more of a knee-jerk response than I intended it. It just seems like a lot of people are more interested in a confirmation rather than a discussion.
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I guess Im having trouble seeing how “inhibiting the presence” and “supressing” are the same thing. IF that is what is trying to be said. [/quote]
Well it actually does both. Catecholamines inhibit release at the pancreas and also suppress action at the cell. And I don’t think that having high insulin to begin with will blunt catecholamine relsease, which you wouldn’t want anyway. Intense exercise will stimulate a sympathetic response which will release catecholamines. And for the most part, the main substrate used during exercise will be ATP-PCr, so I’m still trying to understand why the pre-exercise insulin spike has been so recommended. I’m not discounting people’s individual success with it, I’m just trying to understand the mechanisms.
EDIT: by “exercise” I was referring to anaerobic exercise. things of course change with aerobic exercise.[/quote]
I cant explain the science, due to lack of knowledge/understanding, deep enough to clear up your questions, sorry.
I am pretty sure Poliquin is against preworkout carbs for a lot of the same reasons described by siouxperman and wfifer. And the strong majority of the rest of the training world (outside of Biotest) are still all on the postworkout-carb wagon. However, its tough to argue with the results from a lot of intelligent people on the site as well (CT, BBB, etc).
Moral of the story: Try em both and see what works (cliche, but true). It seems there is enough science on both sides to justify either method.
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.[/quote]
TBH, I haven’t ever seen or heard of a mechanism in which the insulin/catecholemine relationship causes swift down-regulation of one due to the presence of another. I imagine the premise behind the pre-workout insulin spike is due to the fact that it will take time (always a big factor) for the catecholemines generated by the workout to blunt insulin response in muscles. Whereas PWO, the threshold of catecholemines may be too high for the insulin spike to effectively overcome and work as usual at those same sites.
I’m a little rusty on my Biochem/Ex Phys though, so take that for what its worth, but it makes sense to me.