Insulin Spike Post Workout

I keep reading in mags that you need to eat carbs right after your work out to create an insulin spike, promoting faster muscle growth. Does this mean eat a bag of skittles along with a protein drink? It talks about slow burning carbs before the workout for energy and fast burn carbs after.

PWO you should have chocolate milk (seriously) or Surge.

See http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460833 for help understanding post-workout nutrition.

Insulin helps shuttle amino acids into the muscle. Theoretically, a big insulin spike will enhance this process. Insulin is a very anabolic hormone and will thus facilitate growth. Just be aware that some of that growth will be fat.

Coincidentally, I’ve stopped trying to induce a large insulin spike post workout because of my efforts to lose fat. I now wait about an hour before eating anything. This has helped me tremendously in controlling fat gain and avoiding overeating (I tend to be VERY hungry right after a workdout, but this hunger subsides if I wait a little while). I recover just fine for a workout the next day. In the hours following a workout, I have more energy because I avoid an insulin crash.

Also, I’m under the impression that most studies dealing with the effects of insulin after a workout use fasted subjects. I’m skeptical that the same observations would hold for subjects who eat normally.

Of further note is that glycogen is never completely depleted after a resistance workout. (Muscles can hold 1000+ kcalories worth of glycogen.) Eating normal meals between workouts can easily replace used glycogen, as long as they contain carbohydrate.

I personally feel that post-workout nutrition involoving insulin spikes is overrated. In most literature I’ve read on sports nutrition, the emphasis is on pre-workout nutrition for enhancing performance. I feel that better performance in the gym, accompanied by an adequate nutrition plan (i.e. enough calories, protein, etc.), will prove most important in muscle growth and recovery as opposed to insulin spikes.

The above post is Angelbutt posting under buffalokilla’s name.

Sorry about that!

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
Coincidentally, I’ve stopped trying to induce a large insulin spike post workout because of my efforts to lose fat. I now wait about an hour before eating anything. This has helped me tremendously in controlling fat gain and avoiding overeating (I tend to be VERY hungry right after a workdout, but this hunger subsides if I wait a little while). I recover just fine for a workout the next day. In the hours following a workout, I have more energy because I avoid an insulin crash.
[/quote]

How is that for muscle loss tho?
If you drank said drink (I’ll say Surge for simplicity) starting 10 minutes pre, through 0 or 5 minutes post (I’m talking mabey 1 liter of Surge) would this not prevent muscle loss when aiming for fat loss?

My fat loss has been slow, so I have not noticed any losses in muscle mass. I have noticed, however, some growth in my quads.

I am unfamilar with the mechanisms behind what you suggest. Care to elaborate?

I’m just saying that If you use Surge* at least DURING your workout (if not using it pre and post as well) it has a greater benifit in terms of preserving muscle mass when loosing fat.

*again, i’m just referring to any peri-workout drink

[quote]Nomancer wrote:
I’m just saying that If you use Surge* at least DURING your workout (if not using it pre and post as well) it has a greater benifit in terms of preserving muscle mass when loosing fat.

*again, i’m just referring to any peri-workout drink[/quote]

HMMM tough one for Fatloss as a goal I would have it all after and just make sure I wasnt fasted prior to the session. A meal a few hours prior. Have plenty of aminos etc in the blood allready. Then you may just burn some fat during the workout as well as depleteing the glycogen.

Remember all our weights session are really session of destruction your creating a stimulus that tears down tissus so it will then regrow etc… Its GOOD to a point. Then you want to HALT that ASAP with that Surge Post workout. The muscles are SCREAMING for the carbs and aminos etc.

Now bulking Im a big fan of carbs and protein during, prior and after. but thats when not looking to lose fat but to gain muscle at the cost of some fat gain.

That help??
Phill

“The muscles are SCREAMING for the carbs and aminos etc.”

Yup, and they’re there if you’re not fasted. The more reading I do on prei-workout nutrition, the more I become convinced Fred Hatfield was right 20 years ago with his Zig-Zag plan.

To the OP, drinking a predominantly carbohydrate solution with a small amount of amino acids does help very, very slightly during the workout as it takes some of the load off of your body’s own systems.

-Dan

So you guys would put the drink only post workout versus any other time, when cutting?

I don’t drink one at all. I just eat food.

I think it makes sense to stick with your own gluconeogenic pathways for a while after your workout if your goal is fatloss. An hour tops would do it I think.

Philll, great post.

bk, although blood amino acid levels may not be as low as fasted levels pre workout, this is missing a big part of the picture. We’re really after an amino acid-induced stimulation of anabolism, coupled with the training.

In other words, spiking the amino acids themselves stimulates muscle growth/recovery independently of the workout.

The last post by buffalokilla was me again (although buffalokilla does the same)…sorry about that again.

David, what you say seems to imply that eating protein makes muscles grow regardless of training.

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Philll, great post.

bk, although blood amino acid levels may not be as low as fasted levels pre workout, this is missing a big part of the picture. We’re really after an amino acid-induced stimulation of anabolism, coupled with the training.

In other words, spiking the amino acids themselves stimulates muscle growth/recovery independently of the workout.[/quote]

[quote]Angelbutt wrote:
The last post by buffalokilla was me again (although buffalokilla does the same)…sorry about that again.

David, what you say seems to imply that eating protein makes muscles grow regardless of training.

David Barr wrote:
Philll, great post.

bk, although blood amino acid levels may not be as low as fasted levels pre workout, this is missing a big part of the picture. We’re really after an amino acid-induced stimulation of anabolism, coupled with the training.

In other words, spiking the amino acids themselves stimulates muscle growth/recovery independently of the workout.

[/quote]

He covered this a bit more in the past and think more in the future when his Anabolic Index comes out. Roughly from what I gathered is we could by spiking insulin and amino proflies several times a day say upon waking was one of his examples, get the same awesome effect as PWO.

My inquiry was more along the lines of the effectiveness of protein ingestion without training. He stated that amino acid spikes (I presume this means amino acids + insulin) is anabolic independent of training. I can only see this being true to a very small extent in regards to muscle growth. Training is indispensible. I suspect that insulin spikes are not, however, especially for someone who is not aiming to gain as much mass, regardless of fat proportion, as possible in a short amount of time.

When my focus is losing fat and retaining muscle, the only thing I drink during and following my workouts is water. Just from my personal experience, I’ve found that getting proper nutrition throughout the day while still restricting calories is enough to prevent excessive catabolism. But I always cut way down on carbs when I losing weight, usually a 40/30/30 split, protein/fat/carbs.

When I’m more concerned about building size and/or strength I make sure get a healthy dose of high glycemic carbs and protein immediately following my workout. So far it’s worked for me.

[quote]Angelbutt wrote:
My inquiry was more along the lines of the effectiveness of protein ingestion without training. He stated that amino acid spikes (I presume this means amino acids + insulin) is anabolic independent of training. I can only see this being true to a very small extent in regards to muscle growth. Training is indispensible. I suspect that insulin spikes are not, however, especially for someone who is not aiming to gain as much mass, regardless of fat proportion, as possible in a short amount of time.

[/quote]

Oh I agree really. I dont spike mine except the Peri workout window even when bulking. I agree with you as well in thje thinking yes it may be anabolic to spike the insulin with carbs and protien at othjer times but It would be anabolic EVERWHERE including fat cells.

But I can see where he is coming from that maybe a half or full serving of Surge (weight dependent) right upon waking when fasted may be great at building more muscle/repair and most not go to fat mass??

Only time science and the real world will tell I suppose.

[quote]Phill wrote:

Oh I agree really. I dont spike mine except the Peri workout window even when bulking. I agree with you as well in thje thinking yes it may be anabolic to spike the insulin with carbs and protien at othjer times but It would be anabolic EVERWHERE including fat cells.

But I can see where he is coming from that maybe a half or full serving of Surge (weight dependent) right upon waking when fasted may be great at building more muscle/repair and most not go to fat mass??

Only time science and the real world will tell I suppose.
[/quote]

Fill has basically answered for me WRT the other questions, but a pre-workout drink that spikes insulin doesn’t necessarily have to store fat.

Great discussion!