T Nation

Insulin response after protein dominant meal vs fat dom. meal

According to McDonalds writings on the ketogenic diet, fat only converts 10% of the energy to glucose while protein converts 58%. So assuimig this, would consuming 50 gs of protein in one meal give the same insulin response as consuming 50*0,58= 29 gs of carbs?

Protein’s will have an insulin “index” response, just as carbs will and just as different carbs have different insulin response (high GI vs low GI), different proteins will have various differing insulin responses (depending on amino acid composition). Also, glucogensis 58% conversion of protein to glucose is the max conversion and will only occur if blood sugar is low (such as on keto diet). 58% of protein does not automatically convert to glucose, that is the max amount that “can” occur if the boidy calls for additional glucose that cann’t be supplied by carbs which is the bodies preferred source of glucose.

So I guess this is the reason to much protein will bring you out of ketosis huh? figures What are some of the proteins with the higher GI and where are they found? Whey, etc…

In general, faster digesting proteins (just like faster digest carbs - high GI) such as Whey will generate more insulin response. For some reason, I believe beef also has a high insulin response (probably one of the reasons red meat is so anabolic). Some nutritional researchers have started research on the insulin response of food being a better and truer gauge than just glycemic index. I have a web site showing some of their finding and will post it tonite.

Checkout: venus.nildram.co.uk/ veganmc/insulin.htm

Could you please post the link again? I dont think its correct. Anyway, Heb, so you think it would be OK to have a nice juicy steak with a tbsp of honey post w/o on my lowcarb diet? Would elicit a decent insulin response…

I typed in the link just as posted (no www) and it worked for me. Honey has a lot of fructose which cann’t be used for muscle glycogen restorage. Fructose and honey are low GI so won’t have as high insulin response as regular carbs and most of the honey (due to fructose) will be stored as liver glycogen (which isn’t all a bad thing probably on low carb diet as liver glycogen provides glucose for the brain). If not trying to replace muscle glycogen, a little honey is ok.

http://venus.nildram.co.uk/ veganmc/insulin.htm

So Heb, if you’re on a low carb diet and you’re glycogen depleted, if you pound a 70 gram protein meal you’ll still illicit an insuline response?
Also, doesn’t liver glycogen turn into muscular/skeletal glycogen eventually?

I’m having trouble getting into ketosis, accorind to the keto-stix, on an almost zero diet. Either my urine is too diluted or this prtoein/insuline thing is messing everything up. What to do… sigh…

Wayne

Any food eaten will generate some type of insulin response - just a question of how much insulin. Eating with respect to glycemic index is not about eliminating insulin (which if possible would eventually cause death, but it’s not possible unless type 1 diabetic), but about insulin CONTROL. There’s times when you want to generate a big insulin response (post WO) and times when you want to limit insulin. Type 2 diabetics generally have poor insulin sensitivity from a lifetime of binging every day on high glycemic foods which constantly generate a large insulin response (they have a history of eating lots of junk food and not exercising). Liver glycogen is not utilized for muscle glycogen but is your bodies glycogen reserve for brain glucose. Your brain requires a constant supply of glucose and it is stored in liver so that when fasting or between meals, glucose is available for the brain which has preferential use of glucose over any other body use. The brain cann’t burn fat like muscles or heart, etc. The brain can burn ketones when on ketogenic diet but it takes several days to make the metabolic shift for this to occur. During the 3 or 4 days of achieving ketosis during starting a keto diet, this is why you will feel like shit and will have a headache, etc…from low blood sugar and little available glucose for the brain but what little glucose is still available is shuttled ONLY to the brain to keep the brain alive as the metabolic shift to burning ketones hasn’t occured. Keto-stix are generally unreliable and worthless…ask other keto guru’s on the forum. I can tell when I’m in ketosis by how I feel. When on a full keto diet, I keep carbs below 20 grams/day until in ketosis which generally takes 3-4 days depending on how much glycogen depleting cardio and lifting I do during that period then keep carbs under 25-30 grams/day max to stay in ketosis. Small insulin responses from protein, etc will not effect ketosis as ketosis is not determined by insulin levels but by glucose levels.

Oh, cool. I was told that glucogenesis thing interfered with keto. It makes since that only glucose inteferes with it… DUh, on my part…
Allrighty then, even in keto we want to keep the insuline down still, correct? Or control it as you said. So heavy eating after a workout is all that is needed then if that is the choses time to illicit a response.
One last question, since fructose can’t be taken into the bloostream and is fully metabolised in the liver, is all of it (liver glycogen) used for brain activity only? In other words, can a coupld of oranges and a tablespoon or two of honey still keep you in keto??? I never knew that there was a difference between muscle glycogen and liver (other than in the short-term). GOod to know.

Thanks, for all the info. I’m particularly confused in this area.
BTW, cardio on off days seems to really help much to my surprise.

Wayne

If insulin has any effect on ketosis, it would be a beneficial effect, as ketosis is determined by blood glucose levels and since insulin is “the” glucose disposal agent, insulin would work to clear any blood glucose which would help achieve/maintain ketosis. Some use ALA, which is an insulin mimicker, to lower blood glucose and help achieve ketosis quicker. The problem with insulin is that as a “storage” hormone, it interfers with fat liberation and can make burning stored fat more difficult for the body. As such, it is beneficial to try and keep insulin depressed as much as possible while on any type of weight loss diet to maximize fat liberation and oxidation. When following a fully ketogenic diet protocol, best results will be achieved by limiting carbs to <30 grams/day to always stay in constant keosis until body fat reaches ~7% at which time you may want to switch to a couple carbup meals 1 day a week if dropping body fat any lower. (the 1 day a week carbup at 7% is a another whole discussion but seems to work best for most). If consuming some occasional fructose (orange or honey), this may drop you out of ketosis for part of the day but if no further carbs are consumed that day, you will go back into ketosis within hours if carb consumption was very mild. If deciding to consume some carb, the best time would be after cardio or weight lifting. When blood glucose is low, the body is smart enough that it has systems in place to shuttle any available liver glycogen or blood glucose to the brain preferentially as the brain is only body system that cann’t burn fat directly. So the brain gets first dibs on glucose in times of famine and other body systems (muscles, heart, etc) utilize stored body fat. If keeping carbs at less than 25-30 grams/day, protein glucogenisis is not usually a problem as the brain requires in excess of 100 grams of glucose/day if available and will quickly use up any available glucose from glucogenisis allowing you to stay in ketosis. I can tell when I achieve ketosis by how I feel. During the 3 or 4 days during the carb depleation leading up to ketosis, I feel very shitty, headachey, lethargic, tired, moody, etc due to chronic low blood sugar. At the magical time that the body makes the metabolic shift to ketosis and ketones become available as brain fuel, you suddenly realize that you no longer feel crappy and headachey and lethargic but suddenly feel almost euphoric (probably partly from no longer having the brain in a state of low blood sugar and partly from ketones being a form of alcohol and having a slightly different effect on brain chemistry than glucose). I prefer to eat as close to zero carbs as possible and stay in constant ketosis because I cann’t deal with metabolicaly shifting back and forth between ketosis and glucose burning. Eating enough carbs during ketosis (>30 grams) to bring me out of ketosis, always gives me intnese carb cravings but as long as I stay in ketosis, I have no cravings. Once you get to ~7% body fat though, then the body seems to have a difficult time liberating enough body fat to constantly make ketones and you start to feel lethargic and shitty again almost like when having the initial low blood sugar and this is when you may have to resort to 1 or 2 carbup meals a week to keep thing going.

So there is no need to worry about overconsuming proteins( regarding the 1:1 protein/fat ratio) when trying to get into ketosis? It may take lonegr, but will eventually happen due to lowered blood glucose? One more for you, Heb- Post w/o on a lowcarb/keto diet, the choice of carbs should be sucrose or dextrose? Could you give me an example of what to consume, say would a handful of raisins be OK?

Raisins contain mostly dextrose and would be a good choice post WO, however, if wanting to consume a small amount of carb post WO while on keto diet, I would recommend 1/2 serving of Surge. That would provide the best benefit with least effect on ketosis but I would stick to no more than 1/2 serving.

Insulin has a large effect on ketosis.

Because without it you would have full diabetic ketoacidosis.

It goes like this, a modest increase in blood ketone production, (~up to 6-8mmol/L) stimulates insulin secretion, which increases peripheral ketone uptake and inhibits ketogenesis.