T Nation

Insulin and Metformin


#1

Now I am sure BBB can answer this question. Will it be beneficial to use Metformin with Slin?


#2

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#3

I have never run insulin but am starting to plan my GH/IGF/Slin protocol now for after my competitions in October. I am good on how to run GH/IGF as I am currently and have run them a few times now.

I was reading conflicting arguments on taking metformin pre-workout and slin pwo. I would be starting with Slin very low maybe around the 4-5iu range unless someone can make me feel safer going any higher as I am intimidated by the though of Slin (hence why I am reseaching so early).

I currently run Metformin at 1500mg once a week during my refeed meal as I am on the Palumbo Keto Diet. I definitely notice that when I take it during this carb loaded meal (400g+) I can get my body back into Ketosis within a 12 hr period.

If you could help me with a safe starting protocol with the Metformin and Slin it would be appreciated.


#4

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#5

Yup your going to say that running 4iu’s daily isn’t nearly as affective as your protocol. I am cutting as of right now so your protocol is not needed.

My goals are a slow bulk, when I come out of the contest I’ll be adding in carbs very slowly first just pwo and 30g per meal with my 50g pro/20g fat per meal. I will continue to ramp it up as I dont want to suffer from edema the first few weeks.

I will be on no AAS as after this contest I want to take a few months off. I plan on running the slin at low doses for a few months if I can keep the fat down during the bulk. I will be starting all this around 4%bf so I dont anticipate putting on a lot of fat.


#6

I will, again, preface this by saying I don’t use these drugs, so my perspective might be inaccurate without anecdotal evidence, but, I will give you my science perspective on glucophage. I see ZERO reason to use glucophage pre-workout.

  1. Inhibition of gluconeogenesis would increase the build-up of lactate, preventing proper skeletal muscle metabolism during a workout. Also would lead to increased metabolic acidosis (though I doubt at any appreciable amount).

  2. 5’AMP protein kinase, will already be active during a resitance training workout, which would make one of the best parts of metformin essentially minimal.

  3. Inhibition of of lipid oxidation during a workout, is a bad thing, and would really only be useful in the obese population that essentially have elevated FFA levels, preventing proper carbohydrate metabolism, which would effect insulin sensitivity.

  4. Reduced GI absorption of carbohydrates right before a workout, when I imagine you will be intaking carbohydrates is just stupid. This is one of the times you want the carbs and full absorption.

If one were to really want to use glucophage, why not use it at the end of day, before a BIG protein +carb meal. This would basically cause a seperate, second significant activation of 5’AMP protein kinase, which would be benefical.

It would reduce GI absorption at a time when it isn’t as necessary, and would also prevent hepatic gluconeogenesis of your high protein meal.

In my assessment, I wouldn’t guess glucophage to be that significant at some one around 4% bodyfat (as you state you are) because most of the pharmacology is concerned with increasing insulin sensitivity via FFA manipulation (through both 5’AMP and mitochondrial manipulation), which most very lean individuals would not have a problem with anyhow.

Why not test your 12-hour fasting blood sugar to determine need, before taking this drug?

BBB, you told me to post me here! lol Though I do feel silly doing so, considering my lack of real life experience with the drugs.


#7

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#8

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#9

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#10

[quote]BUSHMASTER wrote:
Yup your going to say that running 4iu’s daily isn’t nearly as affective as your protocol. I am cutting as of right now so your protocol is not needed.

My goals are a slow bulk, when I come out of the contest I’ll be adding in carbs very slowly first just pwo and 30g per meal with my 50g pro/20g fat per meal. I will continue to ramp it up as I dont want to suffer from edema the first few weeks.

I will be on no AAS as after this contest I want to take a few months off. I plan on running the slin at low doses for a few months if I can keep the fat down during the bulk. I will be starting all this around 4%bf so I dont anticipate putting on a lot of fat.[/quote]

I think you will find that a pulsatile pattern use would still provide a better benefit than a stable/static dose pattern…

I know that when i cut for my show i will be running pulsatile IM/IV GH with AAS as i will be looking for the body re-comp benefits in the form of fuller muscles, lower bodyfat and of course muscle growth (however this will occur)… rather than just hoping for some localised fat loss from SC injects in my hams, stomach and arse.

You do seem well educated on the use of the drugs - well, more so than so many recently so for that i am interested in waht you write for now. However i think you should be a little less quick to dismiss…


#11

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Justayoungen wrote:
I will, again, preface this by saying I don’t use these drugs, so my perspective might be inaccurate without anecdotal evidence, but, I will give you my science perspective on glucophage. I see ZERO reason to use glucophage pre-workout.

  1. Inhibition of gluconeogenesis would increase the build-up of lactate, preventing proper skeletal muscle metabolism during a workout. Also would lead to increased metabolic acidosis (though I doubt at any appreciable amount).

  2. 5’AMP protein kinase, will already be active during a resitance training workout, which would make one of the best parts of metformin essentially minimal.

  3. Inhibition of of lipid oxidation during a workout, is a bad thing, and would really only be useful in the obese population that essentially have elevated FFA levels, preventing proper carbohydrate metabolism, which would effect insulin sensitivity.

  4. Reduced GI absorption of carbohydrates right before a workout, when I imagine you will be intaking carbohydrates is just stupid. This is one of the times you want the carbs and full absorption.

If one were to really want to use glucophage, why not use it at the end of day, before a BIG protein +carb meal. This would basically cause a seperate, second significant activation of 5’AMP protein kinase, which would be benefical. It would reduce GI absorption at a time when it isn’t as necessary, and would also prevent hepatic gluconeogenesis of your high protein meal.

In my assessment, I wouldn’t guess glucophage to be that significant at some one around 4% bodyfat (as you state you are) because most of the pharmacology is concerned with increasing insulin sensitivity via FFA manipulation (through both 5’AMP and mitochondrial manipulation), which most very lean individuals would not have a problem with anyhow. Why not test your 12-hour fasting blood sugar to determine need, before taking this drug?

BBB, you told me to post me here! lol Though I do feel silly doing so, considering my lack of real life experience with the drugs.

Yeah but the fact that you freely admit to not having experience, whilst showing your depth of theoretical knowledge is great, and makes you an asset to our community.

Imagine what you could achieve with some practical knowledge too!

BBB[/quote]

x2 :wink:


#12

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

Running insulin pre-workout can have tremendous effects on muscle anabolism, but it is counter productive to using fat as an energy substrate during training, so for a ‘slow bulk’ it’s not great.

BBB[/quote]

Can you tell me why it is so anabolic to muscle when used pre-workout? I have an idea - but i would appreciate a ‘list’ from you too - as you first introduced me to research the hormone, and i know your experience and knowledge far exceeds mine :wink:

I remember that you mentioned the pump was amazing and strength went up - and i understand the reasons for both of these reactions to the hormone… but i would like you to talk me through why it would be so beneficial to anabolism.

The main reasons i can think of are of course the effect on all catabolism, the uptake of aminos necessary FOR anabolism… maybe IGF and hyperplasia… ??

PM would be fine if you don’t want to detail it in public… Cheers!!


#13

[quote] Brook wrote:
BUSHMASTER wrote:
Yup your going to say that running 4iu’s daily isn’t nearly as affective as your protocol. I am cutting as of right now so your protocol is not needed.

My goals are a slow bulk, when I come out of the contest I’ll be adding in carbs very slowly first just pwo and 30g per meal with my 50g pro/20g fat per meal. I will continue to ramp it up as I dont want to suffer from edema the first few weeks.

I will be on no AAS as after this contest I want to take a few months off. I plan on running the slin at low doses for a few months if I can keep the fat down during the bulk. I will be starting all this around 4%bf so I dont anticipate putting on a lot of fat.

I think you will find that a pulsatile pattern use would still provide a better benefit than a stable/static dose pattern…

I know that when i cut for my show i will be running pulsatile IM/IV GH with AAS as i will be looking for the body re-comp benefits in the form of fuller muscles, lower bodyfat and of course muscle growth (however this will occur)… rather than just hoping for some localised fat loss from SC injects in my hams, stomach and arse.

You do seem well educated on the use of the drugs - well, more so than so many recently so for that i am interested in waht you write for now. However i think you should be a little less quick to dismiss… [/quote]

Oh I don’t dismiss it but when I ran the pulsatile protocol you speak of I didn’t do it long enough to see results. I may do it again but I will not do IV just IM. If BB or you can post a decent protocol to follow, that would be great.

The amount of GH is not much of a problem as I have a steady mean to get it. I don’t agree with you that doing it SC just gives you localized fat loss. I believe it is slower absorption but absorption either way you look at it.