T Nation

Insulin Advice


#1

Hello everyone, I'm a long time TNation reader and after llurking on these forums for the past few years, i've decided to join in with the fun.

Anyway, I have been seriously contemplating using insulin to use for a month whilst i'm off cycle (mainly to keep some more gains until my next cycle). I have some fast acting slin (novorapid), and I plan to work up to 10 ius per workout day.

My question is, would you guys recommend shooting pre or post workout, and how would this effect the pre/intra/post workout nutrition?

and if anyone wants to know my stats

age - 30
height - 5'11
weight - 210
bf - 12-15%
years lifting - 10 (4 with aas)

thank you in advance


#2

I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean


#3

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean[/quote]

Thanks a lot man, would you mind briefly explaining how you fit your meals around this? Or do you just eat as you normally would i.e. no timing of fat and simple carb intake?


#4

Also, could you tell me why you never recommend eq, I remember a recent thread you explained why its crap but I cant find it!


#5

you tailor your insulin to your diet, not your diet to your insulin

meaning… “I am eating 60g carbs every 2 hours, ill need 15iu of novalog”

not “I wanna use 15iu of novalog, so I better eat 60g carbs every 2 hours”

if you eat more than you need, because you want to use more insulin, you will get fat.

I use insulin to cover my meals, 50/60/20 p/c/f x8

EQ is a garbage drug because it’s very weak and can produce somewhat serious side effects like elevated BP


#6

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
you tailor your insulin to your diet, not your diet to your insulin

meaning… “I am eating 60g carbs every 2 hours, ill need 15iu of novalog”

not “I wanna use 15iu of novalog, so I better eat 60g carbs every 2 hours”

if you eat more than you need, because you want to use more insulin, you will get fat.

I use insulin to cover my meals, 50/60/20 p/c/f x8

EQ is a garbage drug because it’s very weak and can produce somewhat serious side effects like elevated BP[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up man, ill follow your advice.

And that makes sense regarding the EQ, never been excited about the compound anyway!


#7

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean[/quote]

where in the US are you actually able to buy insulin without a prescription?


#8

[quote]alexschlong wrote:
Hello everyone, I’m a long time TNation reader and after llurking on these forums for the past few years, i’ve decided to join in with the fun.

Anyway, I have been seriously contemplating using insulin to use for a month whilst i’m off cycle (mainly to keep some more gains until my next cycle). I have some fast acting slin (novorapid), and I plan to work up to 10 ius per workout day.

My question is, would you guys recommend shooting pre or post workout, and how would this effect the pre/intra/post workout nutrition?

and if anyone wants to know my stats

age - 30
height - 5’11
weight - 210
bf - 12-15%
years lifting - 10 (4 with aas)

thank you in advance[/quote]

if you’re gonna run insulin, then run it post workout… you’re using it to shuttle additional nutrients into the muscles. don’t use it pre-workout, as you could get low blood sugar from that. not like “i don’t feel good” LBS, i mean “i’m shaking uncontrollably and am going to pass out” LBS…

use caution with insulin, and let someone know who’s gonna be around you when you use it. also, get a glucogon kit and blood sugar meter as well, just in case you go low and need immediate care…

i don’t think it’s necessary to run it several times a day, as you’ll simply end up needing to eat a ton more carbs to keep from going low. you still produce insulin, so every time you shoot additional insulin, then you’re gonna need to eat that many more carbs to account for that.

realize this, insulin can actually kill you, and like in a somewhat rapid fashion…


#9

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
you tailor your insulin to your diet, not your diet to your insulin

meaning… “I am eating 60g carbs every 2 hours, ill need 15iu of novalog”

not “I wanna use 15iu of novalog, so I better eat 60g carbs every 2 hours”

if you eat more than you need, because you want to use more insulin, you will get fat.

I use insulin to cover my meals, 50/60/20 p/c/f x8

EQ is a garbage drug because it’s very weak and can produce somewhat serious side effects like elevated BP[/quote]

how many units of insulin are you using with your meals?


#10

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean[/quote]

where in the US are you actually able to buy insulin without a prescription?[/quote]
Any pharmacy, You need a prescription for fast acting insulin like Humalog!


#11

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]alexschlong wrote:
Hello everyone, I’m a long time TNation reader and after llurking on these forums for the past few years, i’ve decided to join in with the fun.

Anyway, I have been seriously contemplating using insulin to use for a month whilst i’m off cycle (mainly to keep some more gains until my next cycle). I have some fast acting slin (novorapid), and I plan to work up to 10 ius per workout day.

My question is, would you guys recommend shooting pre or post workout, and how would this effect the pre/intra/post workout nutrition?

and if anyone wants to know my stats

age - 30
height - 5’11
weight - 210
bf - 12-15%
years lifting - 10 (4 with aas)

thank you in advance[/quote]

if you’re gonna run insulin, then run it post workout… you’re using it to shuttle additional nutrients into the muscles. don’t use it pre-workout, as you could get low blood sugar from that. not like “i don’t feel good” LBS, i mean “i’m shaking uncontrollably and am going to pass out” LBS…

use caution with insulin, and let someone know who’s gonna be around you when you use it. also, get a glucogon kit and blood sugar meter as well, just in case you go low and need immediate care…

i don’t think it’s necessary to run it several times a day, as you’ll simply end up needing to eat a ton more carbs to keep from going low. you still produce insulin, so every time you shoot additional insulin, then you’re gonna need to eat that many more carbs to account for that.

realize this, insulin can actually kill you, and like in a somewhat rapid fashion…[/quote]
Insulin can kill you yes, But anyone who practices good judgement never has a problem. The most people I’ve hear about that had problems were people who accidentally overused the slin, Like filling the syringe up to the 2 hash mark and thinking it was 2 IU’s when in reality it was 20 IUs!


#12

[quote]Arnold1979 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean[/quote]

where in the US are you actually able to buy insulin without a prescription?[/quote]
Any pharmacy, You need a prescription for fast acting insulin like Humalog![/quote]

yeah, no pharmacies will sell without a script, from what i’ve seen… maybe that’s a corporate policy, tho.


#13

[quote]Arnold1979 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean[/quote]

where in the US are you actually able to buy insulin without a prescription?[/quote]
Any pharmacy, You need a prescription for fast acting insulin like Humalog![/quote]

hmm, maybe it’s a corporate policy or something in my region, but you can’t get insulin without some sort of documentation that you’re diabetic where i live…


#14

[quote]Arnold1979 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]alexschlong wrote:
Hello everyone, I’m a long time TNation reader and after llurking on these forums for the past few years, i’ve decided to join in with the fun.

Anyway, I have been seriously contemplating using insulin to use for a month whilst i’m off cycle (mainly to keep some more gains until my next cycle). I have some fast acting slin (novorapid), and I plan to work up to 10 ius per workout day.

My question is, would you guys recommend shooting pre or post workout, and how would this effect the pre/intra/post workout nutrition?

and if anyone wants to know my stats

age - 30
height - 5’11
weight - 210
bf - 12-15%
years lifting - 10 (4 with aas)

thank you in advance[/quote]

if you’re gonna run insulin, then run it post workout… you’re using it to shuttle additional nutrients into the muscles. don’t use it pre-workout, as you could get low blood sugar from that. not like “i don’t feel good” LBS, i mean “i’m shaking uncontrollably and am going to pass out” LBS…

use caution with insulin, and let someone know who’s gonna be around you when you use it. also, get a glucogon kit and blood sugar meter as well, just in case you go low and need immediate care…

i don’t think it’s necessary to run it several times a day, as you’ll simply end up needing to eat a ton more carbs to keep from going low. you still produce insulin, so every time you shoot additional insulin, then you’re gonna need to eat that many more carbs to account for that.

realize this, insulin can actually kill you, and like in a somewhat rapid fashion…[/quote]
Insulin can kill you yes, But anyone who practices good judgement never has a problem. The most people I’ve hear about that had problems were people who accidentally overused the slin, Like filling the syringe up to the 2 hash mark and thinking it was 2 IU’s when in reality it was 20 IUs![/quote]

i think what typically happens, is people overeat on carbs just in case…

as someone who is regularly around type 1 diabetics, i’m amazed that people wanna dick around with insulin just to gain a few pounds of muscle…


#15

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Arnold1979 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean[/quote]

where in the US are you actually able to buy insulin without a prescription?[/quote]
Any pharmacy, You need a prescription for fast acting insulin like Humalog![/quote]

hmm, maybe it’s a corporate policy or something in my region, but you can’t get insulin without some sort of documentation that you’re diabetic where i live…
[/quote] could be, I can walk into walmarts pharmacy and get humilin r no problem and no questions asked. I would think a pharmacy would have to sell slow acting insulin due to the amount of diabetics out there with no insurance, not everyone can afford to go to a doctor or clinic to get the documentation. If someone who needed insulin died due to the pharmacy denying them, the pharmacy could be in deep shit.


#16

[quote]Arnold1979 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Arnold1979 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean[/quote]

where in the US are you actually able to buy insulin without a prescription?[/quote]
Any pharmacy, You need a prescription for fast acting insulin like Humalog![/quote]

hmm, maybe it’s a corporate policy or something in my region, but you can’t get insulin without some sort of documentation that you’re diabetic where i live…
[/quote] could be, I can walk into walmarts pharmacy and get humilin r no problem and no questions asked. I would think a pharmacy would have to sell slow acting insulin due to the amount of diabetics out there with no insurance, not everyone can afford to go to a doctor or clinic to get the documentation. If someone who needed insulin died due to the pharmacy denying them, the pharmacy could be in deep shit.
[/quote]

i highly doubt any pharmacy would get in trouble for not selling a medication without documentation of diagnosis or a script…

but anyway, it’s interesting you can get slin easily in Ohio.

i’m curious as to the dosage you use and the ratio to carbs?


#17

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Arnold1979 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Arnold1979 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I would honestly get some novalin R from the pharmacy (legal to buy) and use that 2-3x a day 3-4x a week

with insulin active in your system all day, it’ll be much easier to maintain your gains.

just be sure to eat clean[/quote]

where in the US are you actually able to buy insulin without a prescription?[/quote]
Any pharmacy, You need a prescription for fast acting insulin like Humalog![/quote]

hmm, maybe it’s a corporate policy or something in my region, but you can’t get insulin without some sort of documentation that you’re diabetic where i live…
[/quote] could be, I can walk into walmarts pharmacy and get humilin r no problem and no questions asked. I would think a pharmacy would have to sell slow acting insulin due to the amount of diabetics out there with no insurance, not everyone can afford to go to a doctor or clinic to get the documentation. If someone who needed insulin died due to the pharmacy denying them, the pharmacy could be in deep shit.
[/quote]

i highly doubt any pharmacy would get in trouble for not selling a medication without documentation of diagnosis or a script…

but anyway, it’s interesting you can get slin easily in Ohio.

i’m curious as to the dosage you use and the ratio to carbs?
[/quote]

x2. I assume you just ask for it OTC and they hand it over?


#18

I take 10iu novalin R with meal 1 and another 10iu with my post workout meal

I take 10iu Humalog pre-workout and sip on a shake containing leucine, whey hydro, creatine, beta alanine, and glycerol monostearate and 80g of carbs

pharmacies have to give you insulin if you ask for it. Humulin R and Novalin R are over the counter (without prescription)… it has to be readily available in case of emergency (high blood sugar can lead to coma etc…)

if they refuse to give you humulin R/novalin R, they don’t know what they are doing and you need to speak to their supervisor.

I buy novalin R because it’s about $25, humulin R is $85-100 because eli lilly terminated their contract with a lot of providers. the two bottles are essentially the same exact thing.


#19

Can taking it throughout the day or just PWO have a detrimental effect on insulin sensitivity or natural insulin production? The whole cascade of negative effects of the so-called ‘metabolic syndrome’ begins with the presence of too much insulin if I’m not mistaken.

I decided to link this thread as there is some good information in it:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/insulin_use_during_bulk?id=1765950&pageNo=1

However I think the discussion is limited to the faster acting insulin humalog and novalog. In the thread it mentions that one should consume roughly 15g carbs per iu every 45 mins after injection, yet I wonder if this rule of thumb differs for the slower releasing insulin. Even if the insulin is releasing at a slower rate, a meal consumed during the PWO should have its own release of insulin accompanied by a heightened insulin sensitivity so perhaps it couldn’t hurt to follow the same protocol. For most things I would say I may be over-analyzing things but with something this serious, I feel the inquiries are warranted.

“The pharmacologic effect of Novolin R begins approximately one-half (½) hour after subcutaneous administration. The effect is maximal between 2½ and 5 hours and terminates after approximately 8 hours.”

The above refers to subQ, does anyone have any more specific data or suggestions regarding IM/IV injections? 8 hours seems a bit lengthy for my taste, I may have to adapt my workout schedule, the last thing I’d like to do is take it later in the day, fall asleep and go hypoglycemic during the night.


#20

PS I just purchased some from walmart, along with some syringes no questions asked, although I will refrain from taking it as of yet. I live in Texas, if you can do it here, you should be able to pretty much do it anywhere.