Instinctive Training?

[quote]MickeyG wrote:
I’ve never been a fan of the concept of instinctive training. If you ‘listen to your body’, I’m pretty sure it’s gonna tell you to lay on the sofa and do alternate Krispy Kreme curls instead of going to the gym. Bodies are funny that way.[/quote]

Someone who would do that is a pussy and has nothing to do with “instinctive training”.

Well, that was stated tongue firmly in cheek, but it does illustrate a point. Instinctive training is useless for anyone who isn’t highly motivated (experience is a given). Whether training instinctively or not, you still need to strive to lift more weight, get more reps, whatever. I see a number of people use ‘instinctive training’ as an excuse to basically lift the same weights month after month, and they always instinctively prefer to do single leg extensions rather than squats.

Prof X:
Point taken
I would argue that a person who has trained for ten years is actually incapable of instinctive training. You would still be training from a template in your head. It may not be written down but it is a template. I totally admit that there is some feel that is involved but I’m not sure that I would call it instinctive.
For example, you. If you are currently training in this way and I said, I’d like to know what your workout is, I’ll bet you could jot down a few guidelines maybe a basic days schemes and a few set rep schemes. You would give me some parameter within which that?s not instinctive. Instinctive is going into the gym feeling like 72 is a good number so you try and guess how much weight you can squat 72 times. Then you try.
That said, this guy does not appear to be the hypothetical scenario that you mentioned, having 10 years training behind him. He probably has a few months or a year ( I don?t personally know him so I may be wrong) .
Reading his question immediately made me think of the study I just read about instinctive training. Now this goes with what you are saying only because it was with UNTRAINED individuals, but basically when tested on their max, then allowed to train on their own, they were training below 60%1RM and not to failure at any time. It pretty much agreed that you need one or the other to grow. So I would say that if you have to ask about instinctive training, you are not ready to do it.
In the end X I don?t think we disagree, I just think you are thinking of the guy who has been doing this for years where I am thinking first of the newbie. It may reflect our relative training ages as mine is lower than yours. It may reflect our training situations as I?m around a bunch of guys who are stronger than I am but it sounds as if that is not your case.
Regarding your comments of T-Nation in general. I left for a while and came back. It seems mainstream to me relative to how I train but I think that has a lot to do with my weird training than with this site. It think every site, author, publisher gets their favorite topics and perhaps beat them over the head a bit. You have been a member a long time and built a following. I suggest that you consider authoring an article on alternate techniques, maybe an article designed for the advanced lifter or even an article on the uses of instinctive training. They may put it up for you otherwise just put it out there as a post, see if you can?t steer this ship a bit.
If you?d like to chat more about any of this I would be happy to continue you the conversation in a separate thread or via PM.

Dirty Tiger: sorry to hijack your thread dude. I?ll stop now.

[quote]starkmann wrote:
Dirty Tiger: What you laid out in your first post is not instinctive training. It variable but not instinctive. It would be instinctive if you wandered into the gym and thought “I feel like legs today” and did legs regarless of when you did them last. Further if you just decided you felt like squats then while you were at the rack front squats then some curls(since you’re already in the squat rack :wink: and so on. If you quit when you felt tired and lifted whatever weight you felt. That is instinctive training, it’s not very effective.
What you are talking about is a variable set/rep scheme within a workout, that can be very effective. It makes each workout a little different. Your body has to adapt some after each time.

[/quote]

You are 100% correct.

“Varaible Training” is a much better term for the type of training I am talking about.

I’ve tried Split Routines, I just don’t like them.

starkmann, I appreciate your input.

Phill, Your Idea for an Upper-Lower split sounds interesting.

The more think about it the more I like it…Would you mind elaborating?

A simplified split routine may be in my future.

[quote]MickeyG wrote:
Well, that was stated tongue firmly in cheek, but it does illustrate a point. Instinctive training is useless for anyone who isn’t highly motivated (experience is a given). Whether training instinctively or not, you still need to strive to lift more weight, get more reps, whatever. I see a number of people use ‘instinctive training’ as an excuse to basically lift the same weights month after month, and they always instinctively prefer to do single leg extensions rather than squats.[/quote]

While I agree that some use it as an excuse to be lazy, I also have to digress and say that these are normally guys that are new to training and selectively move from life fitness machine to life fitness machine. These are also the guys that look completely spaced out with no concentration.

For the sake of argument, there are plenty of people in the gyms that I work out in that follow a 5x5 or full body or push/pull variation that just go through the motions. It is generally assumed that if someone is posting here that is not the case. If it is, that person needs to forget about weight training, put on some tiny shorts and go run 20 miles for fun because they have no place lifting weights in the first place.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What is the deal with “full body routines” and why does everyone think they need to be doing this all of a sudden?[/quote]

I’m sure it’s not really “everyone” right? And who are you referring to when you say “all of a sudden”?

Some of the most athletic (and well built) people throughout history have implemented full body routines.

Since there is a growing concensus that training efficiency or “bang for your buck” training is the way to go for building a more athletic, attractive body, people are slowly realizing that training with low volume, full body routines reaps as many benefits as higher volume split routines. And usually at a much lower volume.

I now squat, press and pull three times per week and I look bigger, more athletic and leaner than I did when I split body parts. This also gives me more time to hit the bag, do hill sprints etc.

If one is a life-long devotee to splits and it works for him why get bent out of shape if someone is a full body devotee? It works both ways.

[quote]derek wrote:
Professor X wrote:
What is the deal with “full body routines” and why does everyone think they need to be doing this all of a sudden?

I’m sure it’s not really “everyone” right? And who are you referring to when you say “all of a sudden”?

Some of the most athletic (and well built) people throughout history have implemented full body routines.

Since there is a growing concensus that training efficiency or “bang for your buck” training is the way to go for building a more athletic, attractive body, people are slowly realizing that training with low volume, full body routines reaps as many benefits as higher volume split routines. And usually at a much lower volume.

I now squat, press and pull three times per week and I look bigger, more athletic and leaner than I did when I split body parts. This also gives me more time to hit the bag, do hill sprints etc.

If one is a life-long devotee to splits and it works for him why get bent out of shape if someone is a full body devotee? It works both ways.

[/quote]

That was beautiful.

[quote]derek wrote:

If one is a life-long devotee to splits and it works for him why get bent out of shape if someone is a full body devotee? It works both ways.

[/quote]

Because both techniques are no longer even being discussed or recommended. Every single person who logs in is told to now train with a full body routine. Yes, the act of doing that is NEW as it wasn’t happening even one year ago.

[quote]Dirty Tiger wrote:
people are slowly realizing that training with low volume, full body routines reaps as many benefits as higher volume split routines. And usually at a much lower volume.[/quote]

Also, exactly how much “volume” do you think is involved in a split routine? I can usually be in and out of the gym in 30min some days. There is no way someone is finishing a full body routine in that time so where are you getting this concept?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Dirty Tiger wrote:
people are slowly realizing that training with low volume, full body routines reaps as many benefits as higher volume split routines. And usually at a much lower volume.

Also, exactly how much “volume” do you think is involved in a split routine? I can usually be in and out of the gym in 30min some days. There is no way someone is finishing a full body routine in that time so where are you getting this concept?[/quote]

I didn’t type that, Derek did.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Dirty Tiger wrote:
people are slowly realizing that training with low volume, full body routines reaps as many benefits as higher volume split routines. And usually at a much lower volume.

Also, exactly how much “volume” do you think is involved in a split routine? I can usually be in and out of the gym in 30min some days. There is no way someone is finishing a full body routine in that time so where are you getting this concept?[/quote]

Well, if one trains using a split, he/she usually exercises each muscle (or group) individually.

Let’s see…

Most splits include working; Chest, Back, Delts, Tri’s, Bi’s, Quads, Hams, Calves, Abs, maybe a little forearm work.

I know my full body workouts involve a press of some kind, a pull of some kind and a squat of some kind. 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps. That is low volume/high frequency.

I’m not saying you are “guilty” of extremely high volume (I know you are not) but I don’t see why the question of “why” even comes up. I ask why NOT?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
derek wrote:

If one is a life-long devotee to splits and it works for him why get bent out of shape if someone is a full body devotee? It works both ways.

Because both techniques are no longer even being discussed or recommended. Every single person who logs in is told to now train with a full body routine. Yes, the act of doing that is NEW as it wasn’t happening even one year ago.[/quote]

A lot of us have been doing it for years. Glad to see it’s finally catching on.

[quote]Dirty Tiger wrote:
Phill, Your Idea for an Upper-Lower split sounds interesting.

The more think about it the more I like it…Would you mind elaborating?

A simplified split routine may be in my future. [/quote]

Sure not a prob and really VERY simple. All the routines I have been following the past year or so no matter if upper/lower, full body, day split all revolve around the use of 6 exercises and then filling in after that how I see fit. WShat needs hit or even what I want to do. Yes even direct arm work, machines, etc… The thinking being that if (like Dan John says) you eat the BIG toad first that palte of smaller frogs is much easier to eat. Or simply do the MEAT of the cake first and gthe rest is just the icing.

So each of the following get 20 mins deveoted to them every week. Bench Press, Standing overhead press, Chins, bent over rows, DL and squat. Reps etc. Go by feel like a stated prior. the plan is to go heavy but sometimes it boils down to doing fewer sets of more reps, or less load more reps, othetr days it may just feel like the DAY and Ill go for that new PR aiming always to do BETTER in the 20 mikns I allow. 20 is up so is that exercise.

The upper lower im doing now is this
upper #1
Bench press
BO row

Upper #2
Chins
OH press

Lower #1
DL

Lower #2
Squat

Then LIke I said I fill in really it gets VERY instinctual here usually, Hitting what doesnt feel like it did. That might even be just one HARD set to failure etc… Right now im being a bit more structured in the choices and using damn near all compounds as well aside from a few iso’s like BB curls etc…

Its simple but it works. One thing though is you only get out what you put in. Its your choice on the loading reps etc… One has to really know how to TURN it the hell on. To push them selves. The sets, reps, and loads wont do it for you. Those arent prescribed and RARELY will I get say large sets of the same # of reps. aside form maybe a ton of sinlges or doubles. The fatigue sets in and adjust the reps for me. The main thing being no matter the sets reps load PUSH it to edge every w/o.

Oh and recently just added in an unloading week every three where I drop the time for one week to 10 mins per exercise. Cant tell you the outcome on this yet as Im in the middle o

If thats not clear and is of interest just ask.
Phill

Thank You Phill.

I might try something like that next fall.