T Nation

Insomnia Since Starting TRT


#181

Check the WiFi type texting apps. Snap chat. Any apps that allow communication without going through the carrier or the normal phone texting apps like kik, text now, etc.

Also go through the pictures and be sure to check the deleted pictures. Most of the time they are still there for 30 days in the trash bin.


#182

I seriously think that is it. One day shes a total Bitch, well for weeks shes a raging crazy woman, then she wakes up one day in a good mood and acts like everythings fuckin wonderful. roller coaster for me. Its like 1 month raging, 3 days happy, 1 month rage and etc…

she is not receptive to “wife dear wife… please get your self checked out, your out of control”… i just get a big middle finger…

but yeah i think thats it.


#183

There is something to once a cheater likely to cheat again.

I could tell you the girls in middle School that are essentially door knobs already


#184

Check Facebook messenger too

Also see what she’s been googling. Try to access internet history.

Your story sounds so
Damn familiar. And if she has a passcode on her phone, don’t get upset. She’ll sense somethings up. Just watch and anazlyse her typing it In. Then access the phone incognito.


#185

Does she go out a lot?

So you know where she always is?


#186

I’ve literally never heard of anyone getting off of these things unscathed. Honestly, with all I’ve been through in the past year, I’m not sure I’m ready for it.

What kind of dose were you on and which SSRI? The shorter the half-life, the more brutal the withdrawal. What kind of symptoms did you have also? I’m only on 10mg of Citalopram and my doctor legit told me to cold-turkey it last week, not sure I’m feeling that.


#187

… It was actually an SNRI which I was taking, Cymbalta, SNRI’s still rewire your brain just like the SSRI’s…

I was originally taking 45mg which kinda got me out of a dark hole - although I felt emotionally numb which is why I wanted to stop taking them, I thought they were no longer working for me.
I dosed down from 45mg to 30mg, then 20mg, 15mg, 10mg, 5mg until I was just taking a few grains a day.

With each reduction I felt as though I had flu, really cold, body aches, dizziness, flu is the best way to describe it.

Since then I have started with insomnia and anxiety, I didn’t think this was related to me coming off the meds but looking back these problems coincide with me stopping the SNRI completely.
I now believe that I have been taking them for so long (15 years) that my body doesn’t know how to make it’s own brain chemicals.

I am now on Mirtazapine 30mg which is making me very lethargic. I can’t even feel the TRT working because I am so zombiefied.

I have an appointment tonight with my GP to discuss my treatment. I am so upset that I have to take an antidepressant tablet again after all the pain I went through quitting them. Mirtazapine is not an SSRI, it works differently, its meant to be a bit better in the side effect side of things.
I guess I just need to take a tablet for the rest of my life to make myself well… I look at my friends who don’t take anything and here’s me, antidepressants and testosterone therapy - I just want to be normal like everyone else, it seriously gets me down :frowning:


#188

I have also developed Fibromyalgia since stopping the SNRI, its all low serotonin related.


#189

Have you considered going back on the SNRI?


#190

Ugh, that’s rough man. I’ve read that the best way to come off SSRIs is to use Prozac since it has a very long half-life. Seems counter-productive to use another med to come off of one but I guess it’s so brutal for some people that they do it. I wonder if that method would work for an SNRI?


#191

Don’t get discouraged! I’m sure we can fix your problem.

Obviously your sleep problems have been induced by TRT.
It can be that your problem is serotonin related because Testo has evidence to alter serotonin levels in different brain regions. It’s not completely understood yet. However insomnia and anxiety can happen on too low and too high serotonin levels. We have to check what is the case here.

You have to do the following. Get yourself a prescription for sertralin. You take 25mg 5 hours before bed with a protein rich meal. Don’t start it regular just one time to test. Half an hour before you go to bed you eat a bunch of sweet stuff with a lot of sugar. This makes sure you have a lot of serotonin before sleep. Now it can either get better or worse. If it doesn’t make a difference retry the experiment the next day with 50mg.

If you can sleep well I would stick with 25mg sertraline. Additional trazodone is a good idea. 50mg 45min before sleep. We can than look further into how to up your serotonin with minimum side effects.

If you sleep worse it can be the opposite. The T pushes the testosterone too high. In this case reduce the T or induce something sedating.

Also get your cortisol checked. High cortisol can induce insomnia.

Don’t do any coffeine/coffee!!!

Do you have to urge to move when you are in bed? Restless-Legs-Symptoms?

Every body is different. Maybe you just don’t need as much T. If you are sure to stay on the dose we can try some more approaches.

Also there are other neurotransmitter which can cause problems.

Norephedrine can be an issue. Try 100mg caffeine or 1 cup of coffee one hour before bed with some sugar and see what the effect is there. If NE is too low it will probably sedate you. No joke! If it get’s worse get propranolol prescribed. Combine propranolol with 0.5mg melatonin and see if that makes a difference.

Last but not least Dopamine. If it’s too low you get RLS-Symptoms (urge to move legs). Then try 100mg L-Dopa to confirm. If it’s too high try promethazine 20mg.

Use these drugs just to see whats causing the issue. If we find something that helps we can look further into it. My bet is promethazine will help you but it’s just a guess. Also be careful with remeron aka mirtazapine it can make you really fat in a really short time.


#192

I really like your approach to experimenting with different substances to identify root cause. Do you think that taking an SSRI once or twice to see if improvements result is a true test of whether serotonin levels are the case of his insomnia? I thought the SSRIs didn’t have a meaningful effect on serotonin until a therapeutic dose has been received (which typically takes 4-6 weeks): previous to this, perhaps the antihistamine effects of the drugs could be at play?


#193

This is true of my experience. Even one coffee first thing in the morning has a disastrous effect on my sleep.


#194

Hi, thanks for your reply.

Today is a bad day. Last night I did 15 minutes on the exercise bike, and it completely wiped me out. Laid in bed with thoughts racing through my head, I literally haven’t slept at all.
Exercise is doing something to me and giving me severe insomnia.
This never happened whilst I was taking an SNRI.

I am now at the lowest point of my life. I am literally struggling day to day. I am severely depressed by it all, I can’t see a way out. I am slowly withdrawing from life. I have no interest in anything anymore. I can’t even go for a bike ride with my daughters without this bizarre process happening, my doctors don’t have a clue what’s wrong with me.

I can’t do this anymore.


#195

Serotonin levels raise immediately. However the antidepressant takes time because it’s based on the downregulation of receptors which just takes a few weeks. Side effects on the other hand appear immediately. In this case we just need the higher level of serotonin not necessarily the downregulation.


#196

You are in such a terrible mental state because you are in a terrible physical state! Don’t forget that. You will feel definetly better soon!

But I see how exhausted you are. You should definetly get back on a low dose Ssri! Just for a short time. Go to your doctor today. Get some sertraline and promethazine! You can also discuss with him giving you some quetiapine just for a couple of nights so you can sleep and recover.

That’s all you gotta do for know. Please let us know the result. I exactly know what you’re going through. You lost the ability to relax and recover and get your head free at the moment and this is super painful but it will get better soon trust me.


#197

Best thing tbh is to go to a good psychiatrist! If you start getting serious suicidal ideation go to psychiatry and let the experts do their work! Do that favor to you and your family!

You may feel like everything is fucked but it isn’t. The problem is it’s hard to see for you at the moment. I have been in that hole. You don’t see the end of the tunnel but suddenly there it is.

If the only thing that helps is raising your T dose than do that. It won’t kill you if you do it short time to recover. In this timespan you can get the meds I proposed and get the energy to do these steps.

Also don’t do any exercise or anything that stresses you more! You are depleted at the moment! You need to do anything to not stress your body even more! Eat enough is also important! You are sick get the rest you deserve.

If you have any questions I’m here :blush:


#198

Thank you so much for the kind, positive words. Yes, I am in a dark dark place at the moment and cannot see how I am going to get past it. My wife just called me and I broke down on the phone, I simply cannot handle things at the moment, I am slipping away.

My wife is making a private appointment for me to see a psychiatrist, my GP doesn’t know how the different antidepressants work so I need to speak to somebody who does.

Mirtazapine isn’t helping, making me feel sluggish and lethargic.
I am going to ask for setraline as I do believe my problem is serotonin related. Since stopping the SNRI I have had the following symptoms:

Anxiety
Insominia
Exercise Intolerance
which has all lead to DEPRESSION.

I am disappointed that I may need medication for the rest of my life but there is no alternative. I don’t like to think what would happen if I had to continue feeling this way, it’s so overwhelming and nothing else matters. I have 2 beautiful daughters but I feel like the worst father ever, I cannot devote the time they need from me because i feel so ill. I cannot escape this feeling. I keep trying to exercise to prove to myself I can still do it, I can do it but the aftermath is horrendous, the tiredness sparks the anxiety, the anxiety gives me insomnia.
Bad times :frowning:


#199

That sounds good! So when did you stop the SNRI? Duloxetine? Venlafaxine? What was your dosage before? How fast did you go off?

But yeah I’m just going through exactly the same thing. These symptoms always indicate you have gone off/too low too fast.

You have a good chance you will feel okay with a low dose. F.e. I was on sertraline 100mg for a long time. Now I’m on 25mg without any of the side effects and I feel good. If I go to zero I develop the same symptoms you experience. So it takes a lot of time.

Good luck and update us!


#200

… I finally came off in September 2017. I was on 60mg for years and it took me 2 years to come off them, slowly tapering - I didn’y rush this, even down to bead counting in the last few months.

I’m sorry you have had the same experience, it’s not good, but I find comfort in the fact that I am not alone.

It’s unbelievable how brain chemicals can do this to you, it’s so physical !!!

The doc suggested starting on 50mg of Setraline. I am unsure about the long term effects of SSRIs but at this moment in time I need help. If I have to stay on for life to live a life worth living then so be it. I will keep you updated and thanks again for your support.