Al- yes, drop sets taken too far, as with anything taken too far…
but think of just the theory… drop sets not taken too far compared to a few sets with less inroad. I can only speak from experience but I have done that and have noticed way more growth for that period of time over the 3-4 heavy sets I was doing before that.
I have had way better results with 2-3 non failure drop sets over a set to failure, or even 2-3 hard but non failure sets.
Scott -effort vs inroad
Final 3rd rep with a 3RM is super high effort, your strength is down to just less than your 3RM
Final rep with a 15RM means your strength is now less than a 15RM, so more ‘inroad’.
Inroad is acute strength deficit.
Very interesting!!
Thanks
Scott
Interesting! My personal experience with drop sets lead me to a somewhat different place.
About 10-12 years ago, I was coming off a period of training one set to failure and had gotten stale with it. I thought I might be handicapped by lack of access to great machines, based on all the stuff I was reading from Renex, i.e., the magic of finishing with a run away negative that brought you to a state of deep inroad. So I thought if deeper inroad was desirable, why not drop sets to get to that same state.
I trained that way for quite awhile. It was an enjoyable challenge, but I eventually grew tired of it. I started to feel like I was wasting effort taking some of those lighter sets to failure, and it wasn’t doing much for either my strength or muscle size.
Of all the things I’ve tried, the approach that seemed to work best for was doing 3 to 4 sets, relatively heavy, but short of failure, with relatively long rest periods (3 to 5 minutes between sets). It didn’t beat me up as much as taking every set to failure, and gave me the best results in terms of strength (and probably size too, though that is hard to tell definitively, because I’m pretty limited in terms of natural potential). Unfortunately, it is a very tedious way to train. You end up sitting around a lot, and the workouts start to take a long time if you try to do a lot of exercises that way. It takes a lot of patience.
I still make some use of drop sets, but with only modest reductions in weight, combined with relatively long rests. It is sort of a compromise to accommodate my impatience.
Of course, I’m now in the old and declining phase of my life. My recovery ability has deteriorated, and chasing gains has been replaced by a quest to retard the erosion of physical capabilities. That makes it even harder to judge whether or not a particular approach “works better”.
== Scott==
That’s the same boat I’m in but I still ( foolishly?) feel like I can regain some of my former self if I stick to it this time. Last night I was looking at some of my old workout logs from 10 years ago and one had me doing up to 8 chins! Boy have I a long way to go, ha ha!!
If I’m fresh, I can still get 6 neutral grip pull-ups in good form. But 10 years ago, I could have gotten 9 or 10, at the same body weight. I keep trying all manner of things - more volume, or not to failure sets with added weight, or extra negatives, etc., in an effort to get back to 10 good reps. It just isn’t happening. 
Al- oh wow interesting… everything I read, looking at individual results in studies and anecdotal reports from people, tells me the biggest lie in bodybuilding is that we are all really similar. At the core, we probably are, but the path to that core so to speak, seems it can be very different for people.
I’ve had the best results with lighter loads, drops sets, really short rests between sets, etc. Heavy non failure for a few sets does work for me too, mostly because it does work and it’s mroe sustainable. Where the high fatigue stuff produces faster and better results, it always burns me out in a few weeks. So looking at the stimulus itself, it’s superior, but looking at real world long term results, it’s inferior.
I remember in my mid 20s I would do 5 sets 10 wide grip chins after 5 sets of bench presses…ony weighed 175 then too…could not even think of doing that now at 57, lol
Al- oh man, just 6 and no way to increase? Can I ask your age? Seems like there has to be a way to get more…
I saw this older lady, like late 70’s i think who was doing 1-2 hour workouts and got super strong and fit. I’m sure genetics help but man… seems like you could improve the pullup thing…
After I do this 30 10 30 routine I’m doing a few more weeks I’m going to start back at adding chin and dip efforts . It’s amazing how much more draining 4 or 5 30 second negative chins are and a few dips compared to my regular workout.
Scott
I’m 68. I do feel like, in the last 5 years or so, something has changed. It has become harder to maintain my strength in certain lifts that I have been doing for years.
As for pull-ups, I’ve seen some variation in the number I can get, based on weight. Dropping some weight definitely gained me a rep or two. But that doesn’t mean I got stronger.
If I don’t do them for a stretch, I lose a rep or two. When I resume training, I get back those reps, but then tend to hit a plateau rather quickly. I don’t really obsess about it. But I have tried a variety of different progression schemes recently, just to see if I can regain some more. Have yet to find something that works.
For me, it seems to be one of those exercises that is hard to progress. I have the same issue with overhead presses: I get to a certain level and then I hit the wall. Probably just leverages and genetics, now combined with advanced age.
Speaking of the impact of age: In another thread someone mentioned Clarence Bass. I’ve been following him for years, and he still looks pretty good for a guy in his 80’s. But if you dig a little deeper into his posts, you will find that he has struggled to maintain strength and muscle mass in recent years. I was shocked to read the other day that he thinks he has lost 27 lbs of muscle mass since his 40’s. For a guy who weighed 165 lbs at his peak, that is a lot. You see it particularly in his quads.
The funny thing is even though I’m sure a great deal has changed from years past I’m not feeling much has changed from years ago , at least muscle wise. It does seem longer to recover these days and I have no where close to the stamina I used to have but I haven’t kept up that training. After I hurt my knee I stopped running like I used to love to do.I still can use pretty much the same weight I’ve used for years on most exercises if not a few more pounds. I can still do 3 or 4 dips after including them in a few workouts ( I rarely do them) but chins are a no go . The biggest change physically is when I look at the skin on the back of my hands, it has that old persons wrinkly look but I’ve subjected my hands to all sorts of chemicals doing photography etc for years. The biggest change seems to be mental, more and more I can’t remember stuff , where’d I leave those damn keys! Ha ha! I think this virus and being stuck home away from work , etc for almost a year now has taken a tole on me more than anything. It’s been very stressful and that is not good for anyone’s mental or physical side. Places like this forum can be a stress relief or at best a diversion.
Thank you for your insightful reply.
I think Greg Doucette has a video about her
Reminds me of the same concept as Myo reps (Doing a high rep set to failure, waiting 5 sec as many reps as possible, waiting 5 sec, repeat) a type of rest-pause training. The idea being that by fatiguing the muscle you’re constantly in that “close to failure” range where the reps “count.”
Al- From what I read most do start to lose it in their 60’s, sounds to me though like at 68 your in the 99 percentile which is super good. So many at 68 have trouble getting the groceries in, I think your doing great at keeping as much as possible.
That is a great point.