Inno-Sport Questions

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Question about the mini-tramp sprints:

Are they done running in place on the trampoline the whole time, or is it squats on the tramp followed by an ordinary sprint on grass/track?[/quote]

Get in a low squat position, maintain this position while you piston your legs.

There was an article on the Inno site discussing the possibility of eliminating squats from training. Actually there was talk about replacing traditional PIM sq’s with ISO , REA and OI sq variations.
What are your thoughts on this?

About the mini tramp sprints, I tried doing them on my bed, they’re quite hard, quads got tired quickly. I don’t think I’ll continue doing them on my bed though, might break the damn thing.

[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
There was an article on the Inno site discussing the possibility of eliminating squats from training. Actually there was talk about replacing traditional PIM sq’s with ISO , REA and OI sq variations.
What are your thoughts on this?
[/quote]

I think you could definitly do this, although I would keep PLIO work in as well. Heavy eccentric full squats and ISO just below parallel. ISO Bulgarians for An-2 work, then the FDA and REA stuff, working up to depth drops and depth jumps. IPM stuff might be good as well.

Tons of stuff here, start with some things and work from there.

Minitramp sprints.

They really teach teh instant relaxation that is needed for rate/speed type work.

I think they are more for that then reactivity.

You drive the leg down and then relax as the tramp drives teh leg back up.

So I think tramp work is great for teachin the rapid firing and relaxing that defines rate work. When you try it you’l see what I mean. Plus low impact for the bigger guys.

Basically they teach that initial twitch for movement and then the relaxation. Fire and relax

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
L-Dizzle wrote:
There was an article on the Inno site discussing the possibility of eliminating squats from training. Actually there was talk about replacing traditional PIM sq’s with ISO , REA and OI sq variations.
What are your thoughts on this?

I think you could definitly do this, although I would keep PLIO work in as well. Heavy eccentric full squats and ISO just below parallel. ISO Bulgarians for An-2 work, then the FDA and REA stuff, working up to depth drops and depth jumps. IPM stuff might be good as well.

Tons of stuff here, start with some things and work from there.

[/quote]

Yeah well, at least for change if nothing else. Right now working with ISOs but we’ll see how things develop…

Jumanji,

I am interested in developing the ability to “play low”. I was wondering if there is any sort of progression you like to follow to build this ability rather than just use the line jump exercise and go progressively deeper striving for more jumps in a given time period.

I would imagine that strength in deep angles would be the first priority. So you might go with ISOs in a full squat position and then move toward the line jumps (move from DUR towards RATE). Am I on the right path with this thinking? Hope you can give me a little guidance.

Thanks,
Ian

[quote]bigTR wrote:
Jumanji,

I am interested in developing the ability to “play low”. I was wondering if there is any sort of progression you like to follow to build this ability rather than just use the line jump exercise and go progressively deeper striving for more jumps in a given time period.

I would imagine that strength in deep angles would be the first priority. So you might go with ISOs in a full squat position and then move toward the line jumps (move from DUR towards RATE). Am I on the right path with this thinking? Hope you can give me a little guidance.

Thanks,
Ian[/quote]

While I am not Jumanji,

I do think you are on the right path.

Here’s teh deal with the inno-sport system:

It’s all about individual needs. You train your weaknesses.

So If you are too weak to get into the “low” position and be explosive, then iso’s in the stretch will help. If weakness is not the issue then the line jump progression will be a huge help (of course using power methods, altitude drops, in the “low” position should be included).

Your first step should be asking “Why can;t I play low?”

When you answer that question that will tell you what you need to do.

BigTR~

Squatting is dead correct. I merely gave an example of another grueling exercise found at the “deep angles”.

I actually just move right along the force curve. From strength (DUR) methods (Iso, PIM, OI’s), to MaxForce stuff (FDA’s, REA’s, or Olympics), to more speed-strength stuff (RFI’s (line jumps), etc.).

The issue isn’t as simple as “getting stronger” down low. I knew too many guys who were very strong who got to watch me play on Friday nights. In fact, the only guys I knew who cared about how much they benched were the guys who got cut. Now, I know this isn’t a popular thing to say on a predominantly PL thread, but it is true.

To make it very simple: the pot of gold is found in the squat rack… if you are reactive and rate dominant (usually hand in hand in athletics).

For all the rest of those strength dominant athletes… the ones who stick to the ground, the ones who ‘muscle’ everything, you are being lied to, plain and simple. Squat 450 or squat 500, it makes no difference because you cannot get to the point of attack.

Now, get a springy guy stronger and he will FLY!!!

I guess all of the non-springy guys are screwed according to modern S&C.

I have yet to see a collegiate program where there is a 4 year progression of plyometric based exercises.

Why? I am asking seriously because I cannot fathom the reason.

So, if you want to drive a guy to have better hips, and to have USEABLE stength at deep angles, then you must first lay the foundation (there is no way around being strong down low first), then learn to absorb force, then reactively squat or Catch a Clean in the deep position and drive back up to standing, then learn to reactively do this with lighter weight faster (Jump squats, weigth vest jump squats, etc.), then do altitude drops in a deep position, then depth jumps.

Now, many of these qualities can be worked simultaneously on different days, but there must be a logical progression, IMO.

Now, this is all single planed. You must do these things in the other two planes of movement also. If you don’t know these, just ask. You must also do these things unilaterally, etc.

Now, this seems very complicated. It isn’t. In fact, it is as simple as Westside or anything else. It is just that in sprots you are training to operate in the speed-strength protion of the force curve, not the MaxStrength portion.

So while westside uses very sport specific Strength-speed, and speed-strength to support their MaxStrength sporting efforts, the field athletes must use MaxStrength to support their strength-speed and speed-strength sporting efforts.

All of these “fancy” exercises are just different formes of speed strength that also work elastic qualities differently… not fancy. Much like adding bands and chains to alter the stimulus provided during a DE or ME day… same deal, different place on the force curve.

As an example of dynamic strength and loose hips, when I lived in Indy, I used to watch this decathlete train who wore a weighted vest (40lb) to do dynamic lateral lunges. I mean step laterally and dive bomb ass to grass and pop back up instantly… amazingly painful looking, and yet a stunning display of dynamic strength due to smoothness. He would crank out 25 per side as part of hid dynamic warm-up.

Yes, he was a beast for his size.

Anyway, I have to hit the sack.

Let me know if this helped at all.

J

Squattin and Jumanji,

Thanks for your replies they are very helpful. I was thinking along the lines of the progression that you outlines- basically move from DUR towards RATE in the deep angles.

Jumanji- I think I get what you are saying about the multiple planes of movement. What you talked about so far only covers up/down movement when side to side and front/back are all needed for almost all athletes. I think these planes represent more of a challenge exercise selection wise but probably shouldn’t be too much of a problem.

I also assume that the progression of ISO, PIM, etc → REA,RFI,etc would hold true across these planes and that you would want to develop strength in the deep angles in all three planes before moving down the force curve in any other plane.

Jumanji (or anyone else who has any ideas) I would like to hear how you incorporate sprinting into your plan. I don’t get the impression that you follow DB’s methods exactly as they are laid out. Lately I have become fond of the CFTS template of speed development and have loosely modelled my training after it.

However sprinting is inherently reactive, bordering on rate, in nature and (though not in deep angles) is bypassing the structured progression you outlined if the athletes fail to work down the force curve prior to the use of sprint training.

With this being said I know that Charlie uses a GPP period which acts to acclimate athletes with the demands of high intensity maxV sprinting on a track through the use of explosive med ball throws, hill accelerations,etc. Do you think such a GPP phase is sufficient preparation for the effects of sprinting?

I hope I didn’t bombard you with too much there. I have a few questions about how I could “fit it all together” into a plan that would work for me personally but I would like to hear your thought on my above comments/questions so that I can contribute my own ideas for review.

Thanks again,
Ian

Jumanji,

Fantastic post, one of these days I’m going to pick your brain about how to plan out those progressions you are talking about, maybe even more importantly on the the proper ways to evaluate where the athlete is on the “map” and where to progress from there.

I’m training volleyball players and they have so much difficulty “playing low”, which is absolutely critical for defense. They are all so high and compensate by bending at the back which just makes things work.

I’ve got some progressions as well that we’re trying to work towards, right now holding a 10 second ISO Bulgarian Split Squat with 20# dumbells is pushing them to the limits, reactive stuff might be a whole off-season away I feel like.

Some real good stuff being thrown around in this thread though, I hope we can keep the ideas flying.

BigTR,

Where did you learn about the CFTS template?

Pertaining to putting it all together, I don’t know if you’ve read some articles on the Inno site by Brad Nuttall (“Training Templates” and “Perpetual Performance”)? They give at least some idea of how to construct your training.

But when taking strength in the deep angles or in the low position, and in different planes into consideration, those two articles don’t give a lot of information, and I too would be more than happy to learn more about them here.

This is kind of another subject, but I’d like to continue asking about ISO’s. When training to develop hip extension (what Chris Korfist wrote a lot about on the site) with ISO’s, should I train them in the PAP or CJC? E.g. when I do reverse hypers, or pull throughs, or sumo deads for that matter, which joint angle should I use?
I was thinking that since I want to develop the ability to keep my hips extended, or glutes tight, the PAP would be the angle to use…?

BigTR I’m gonna splice some replies into your post. My replies will have *** around them

Thanks for your replies they are very helpful. I was thinking along the lines of the progression that you outlines- basically move from DUR towards RATE in the deep angles.

Your progression is correct. I was just cautioning because many of the members here at T-Nation are plenty strong

Jumanji- I think I get what you are saying about the multiple planes of movement. What you talked about so far only covers up/down movement when side to side and front/back are all needed for almost all athletes. I think these planes represent more of a challenge exercise selection wise but probably shouldn’t be too much of a problem.

As far as planes I am thinking Frontal, saggital, transverse. So the examples Jumanji pointed out are all frontal plane movements. The addition of side to side would be another step (as you noted), and the Final step would be “torsion training” (transverse). Basically plyo type stuff where you twist in the air. Check out DB’s torsion training article, and the torsion samples in the media section (under speed-strength) of the inno-sport site. Of course I could be wrong)

I also assume that the progression of ISO, PIM, etc → REA,RFI,etc would hold true across these planes and that you would want to develop strength in the deep angles in all three planes before moving down the force curve in any other plane.

Fairly true, I dont know how to twist and squat simultaneously, but you could do multidirectional lunges or the hurdle under with a twist. Although, IMO, since DUR is more of a supportive quality, it is not as important to master all of the planes. If you get strong in the stretch (double and single legged)it should carry over enough

Jumanji (or anyone else who has any ideas) I would like to hear how you incorporate sprinting into your plan. I don’t get the impression that you follow DB’s methods exactly as they are laid out. Lately I have become fond of the CFTS template of speed development and have loosely modelled my training after it.

However sprinting is inherently reactive, bordering on rate, in nature and (though not in deep angles) is bypassing the structured progression you outlined if the athletes fail to work down the force curve prior to the use of sprint training.

With this being said I know that Charlie uses a GPP period which acts to acclimate athletes with the demands of high intensity maxV sprinting on a track through the use of explosive med ball throws, hill accelerations,etc. Do you think such a GPP phase is sufficient preparation for the effects of sprinting?

***Certainly, All the movements (Med ball etc…) you mentioned would easily fall into a speed template. You could do a workout with

Day 1
Explosive med ball
Hill Sprints
Primetimes (if extension is a problem)
Line hops (if PF stiffness is a problem)

Day 2
Speed Squat
Speed Deadlift

I’m fairly certain they would yeild good results (Ive never done it so you’d have to try and tell me)


I hope I didn’t bombard you with too much there. I have a few questions about how I could “fit it all together” into a plan that would work for me personally but I would like to hear your thought on my above comments/questions so that I can contribute my own ideas for review.

Thanks again,
Ian

No problem and I hope this was of help

Thanks to everyone on this thread…thanks to Jumanji (I wrote you re my son) for enhancing this “new” training. I have a son who’ll be a freshman in the fall and a QB for a good program here in CA (Oaks Christian). Anyway, much of knowledge and teaching has to do with breaking down sacred cows and current thinking; with all of the concentration on being ‘strong’ and the necessity of squatting and benching significant weight…as Jumanji said, if the player can’t get to the play because he’s a step slow, he’s useless!

Well, this training won’t help me (in my 50s now) BUT can definitely help my son. Of course, he may be going against the S&C coach there…which is typical. I think the way to attack it is, to go to your clinic or if you can make a DVD or go to the INNO site, whatever…then have the participant significantly gain in the speed measurables…would be the way to convince coaches, eventually. Again, very sports-applicable thread.

Inno-sport now has a DVD on the site about the “system”. From what I have read about it, it seems to be a very good starting point.

Squattin,

Thanks a lot for the response- it was very helpful and this thread continues to solidify my feelings on how I should program my training. However, the thing I struggle with now is how to set up my training. I appreciate your help with the program you designed but I feel that I need more of a base of strength at this point (box squat 245x3, bench 205x1 @190). When I consider this, along with my lack of speed, ability to play low, absorb force, I realize that I really need to work all parts.

Though I am not a total beginner it seems that I should fall in line with Zatsiorsky (though I’m not completely sure it was him) who found that less experienced athletes do best with a conjugate/concurrent system while advanced athletes need to use the conjugate sequence system to elicit new gains.

Therefore I have been using a CFTS inspired routine to try to continue developing strength but also improving my speed. My only problem with this is that I am not sure I am able to develop my ability to play low and absorb/produce force for agility and stops and starts on the ice.

When I used some of the inno-sport methods (which I see as a use of the CSS) I alternated a strength phase with a stength-speed/ speed-strength phase. While I feel that this approach gave decent gains in power and contributed somewhat to the abilities I mentioned in the last paragraph, the alternating of phases was kind of like a one step forward two steps back in terms of developing strength.

So, as you can see, I personally see pros and cons for both approaches I have followed. I am trying to come up with something that gives me the best of both worlds- developing strength, speed, and agility/power in low positions all at once. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks again,
Ian

I think that you may best benefit from doing a strength template (strength one day, strength endurance the other). While doing the strength program, do your skating at a low intinsity (high volume) a la charlie francis (Hi-Low mehod). so make your skating tempo work. then I’d do a 3-4 week strength program as outlined, followed by 1 week of power methods (speed strength template), then dive into another strength block. repeat this until your strength gets where you want it, then move to a speed strength program (3-4wks sp-st, 1 week max st).

In other words it sounds to me like you were alternating your blocks too quickly. stick with one type of training till you get your goal or results slow, then switch templates.

Chris Korfist pointed this out as one of his mistakes (changing templates) in an article at inno-sport.

hope that helps

[quote]bigTR wrote:
Squattin,

Thanks a lot for the response- it was very helpful and this thread continues to solidify my feelings on how I should program my training. However, the thing I struggle with now is how to set up my training. I appreciate your help with the program you designed but I feel that I need more of a base of strength at this point (box squat 245x3, bench 205x1 @190). When I consider this, along with my lack of speed, ability to play low, absorb force, I realize that I really need to work all parts.

Though I am not a total beginner it seems that I should fall in line with Zatsiorsky (though I’m not completely sure it was him) who found that less experienced athletes do best with a conjugate/concurrent system while advanced athletes need to use the conjugate sequence system to elicit new gains.

Therefore I have been using a CFTS inspired routine to try to continue developing strength but also improving my speed. My only problem with this is that I am not sure I am able to develop my ability to play low and absorb/produce force for agility and stops and starts on the ice.

When I used some of the inno-sport methods (which I see as a use of the CSS) I alternated a strength phase with a stength-speed/ speed-strength phase. While I feel that this approach gave decent gains in power and contributed somewhat to the abilities I mentioned in the last paragraph, the alternating of phases was kind of like a one step forward two steps back in terms of developing strength.

So, as you can see, I personally see pros and cons for both approaches I have followed. I am trying to come up with something that gives me the best of both worlds- developing strength, speed, and agility/power in low positions all at once. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks again,
Ian[/quote]

Squattin,
Good thinking- I like that set up and I will probably give it a try. One question though, do you think the strength-speed week would act like a deload for the strength or would you build a deload week into the strength block. For example:

week 1- strength deload
week 2- strength
week 3- strength
week 4- strength
week 5- strength-speed
week 6- strength deload
etc.

Thanks a lot,
Ian

I’d use the speed strength as the deload week. basically double your drop off (5%) and you train 2 out of 7 days (train mon/wed and dont train until next mon)

Squattin,
Thanks for all the help.

LD,
To learn about CFTS go to CharlieFrancis.com and read the archives or buy the CFTS ebook at the site. Regarding the ISOs I think it is best to do flexion (rows, etc)exercises in the PAP and extension exercicses (squat, RDL, etc) in the CJC.

On a kind of random note… here’s a wave-load I’ve been doing with oly squats, both for my training and a couple of my athletes.

1.) Paused (ISO-MIO) Squats
2.) REA Squats
3.) Heavy PIM Squats (basically a 3RM)

Doing sets of 3, keeping the weights for 1 and 2 fixed and attempting to work up to hit a PR on the second set of PIM.

I like the contrast between the paused reps and the reactive reps.