T Nation

Ingestion of Oral Steroid Upon Waking


#1

Hi guys, this is really a question to the more knowledgeable members.


Disclaimer

If your going to flame or act in a belligerent manner then don't waste your time, if my proposal sounds stupid then just say so, no need to be a dick about it.

I don't need to be told the injectable cycles are superior i know this etc etc. If you can offer an injectable which could fulfill my needs I'm all ears.


Basic information:

21yro,
6 years training experience,
Bench press: 370 for a double

Front Squat: Recovering from a dislocated knee (my 5th semi serious knee injury) around 180pfor a triple :(.

Deadlift: Waiting for leg strength to be regained before i start training it again, used to do around 500 for 1 and 310 unilaterally.


I would like my proposal critiqued in the context of helping me lose fat with proper diet and nutrition.

weeks 1-x 20mg Anavar every morning, immediately upon waking, bar weekend

OR

weeks 1-x 5-10mg Dianabol every morning, immediately upon waking, bar weekend

Would I need a PCT? My guess is i wouldn't?

I would take the weekends of so as to stop a build up of the substances.

Both the above stem from reading about piggy backing upon ones natural test levels immediately upon waking as a sort of bridging cycle, I am wondering if i could use it as a very mild fat loss cycle while hopefully suffering zero shut down. I can get any ancillaries recommended, HCG etc.


#2

Also does anyone have any ideas for a very mild, limited to no shut down cycle?


#3

Ok so you will take the orals in the morning and skip weekends. Sounds good to me. This was actually how Dbol was taken for quite a while. That’s why it’s called the breakfast of champions.

Just to expand a bit sports teams in the early sixties used to take 5mg Dbol with each meal for a total of 15mg per day. Anavar can be done as well for a tighter, more refined look. As for zero shut down that is unlikely.

I have heard/read that the type of use you are talking about shuts you down about 40%. So in my book if you have 60% natural testosterone production while on cycle that’s pretty good. If it were me, I would keep the Nolva on hand and use it for two weeks post cycle. I like nolva. The boost in ejaculatory volume is almost immediate for me with use of Nolvadex.

I also like the formestane but the dosing is in the 200mg per day range so it could be cost prohibitive for some. Libido issues vary from person to person but are generally directly proportional to estrogen levels. Clomid is a good choice post cycle as well.


#4

Yes, 15 mg/day Masteron actually makes a noticeable difference and most certainly is as mild as one can get, and I did not find it suppressive. Better yet is that plus low dose HCG (100 IU/day) and letrozole (example figure 0.36 mg/day, but best to adjust according to the individual if need be.)

I have not measured it but I doubt that that stack is much suppressive to LH, due to lowered estrogen providing a benefit to LH production probably approximately matching effect of modest added androgen in reducing LH.

Masteron is an injectable though. But as you were willing to inject HCG, I don’t see why not the Masteron.

As to your proposed oral cycles, I’d rather see someone do either of those than use the oral “prohormones” now being sold. However, I would limit the usage to 6 weeks (you gave no figure for the oxandrolone.)


#5

Thanks wink for the information, being shut down 40% is a bit to much shut down for my goals and for my age. If i get shut down and lose the required fat, i would then have to wait a fair while to do my proper bulking cycle. Formestane

Haha it’s funny Bill i was just reading though, lucky me i get an answer from the actual author! I have no worry with injecting myself, I’m really un-needle phobic. So your suggestion is that i should aim for Masteron, if i can’t get that which 1 of my proposals would you suggest is optimal to help me achieve my goal of losing fat. I assumed it’s going to be Anavar, only reason i suggested Dbol was the fact that all the articles talk about it. Prohormones are almost unheard of in Australia so dw no mention of those:P. Should I be running low level HCG and letrozole on either of the two oral examples i mentioned (once again assuming i can’t get Masteron?).

How would the stacks affect HPTA function in your opinion Bill?? also would i need to run a full PCT post cycle or just a quasie 2 week post cycle?


#6

If you want the best results and this has to be oral-only for some reason, Dianabol + oxandrolone would be a good choice. If unable to know susceptibility to gyno, letrozole or a SERM would be good during the cycle. Standard PCT would apply.

If you used HCG throughout, you could use just the oxandrolone but it would be less effective.

I would use a more solid dose of oxandrolone such as 50-80 mg/day and divide the dose to say 3x/day or whatever works out conveniently. Dianabol, 50 mg/day. Of course that is not “light” but why not get solid results.

When the cycle is fairly short, definitely including the 5 weeks you mention, you don’t have to worry about the fact that LH production is shut down during that period. There is not a need to maintain some fraction of it.


#7

Nah man definitely does not have to be oral only, i think injectable cycles are far superior. I’ve had many mates do oral only cycles, throw on 10kgs in no time BUT end up keeping only 2-3kgs.

Results wise i don’t need good bulking results, i just want a little helper in my fat lose and to help me maintain my strength and muscle as much as possible.

The reason i was suggesting such a low dose cycle is so i could recover very quickly (due to almost no shut down and limited LH lowering and go into my mass building cycle.

Btw my proposed future cycle will be

Test E, 400mg divided twice weekly for 10 weeks with a 3 week prop finisher run at 100mg EOD (might use 500mg Test E because i’m a big boy:P).


#8

Wow that’s quite a jump from 15mg of Dbol each morning. I guess i really have to try to get better at not wasting my time.


#9

400mg of Test a week over 10-13 weeks will be totally suppressive. 100% suppressive mate; I expect that this statement was more connected to the AM oral cycle you first outlined though… and you seem to have a reasonable understanding of the drugs - but i wanted to make sure you realised this fact.

I am confused though… you have made it clear you are not willing to have any real suppression - so why are you now going with a 10 week Test cycle?

I gathered from your bits of information you aren’t looking to gain weight, but lose fat and want the AAS to preserve (at least) your existing muscle while you diet down?

If this is the case, then i wonder what your stats are currently and what the goal is - this information is really quite necessary to be able to recommend a cycle for you…

It is generally well accepted that a drug such as Anavar (for example) alone would not really be strong enough of an anabolic to preserve muscle while dieting down to any great degree… HOWEVER, you are a natural trainee (i assume) and depending on your stats, you are not going to be trying to hold onto a massive or super-natural amount of muscle, so even the mild anabolism from a drug like that would be helpful in preserving your lean tissue.

I would have expected if you cycle 4-500mg Test with a really quite disciplined and strict cutting regime - that you may well grow into your goal. Adding muscle and losing fat.

As i think has been outlined to you above (i skimmed it only) the use of Dbol in the AM with Var steadily throughout would be very effective for your goal - and IMO your suppression would be significantly less to recover from using that cycle than if you ran a med length Test ester over 10-13 weeks.

I would suggest maybe something like Test Propionate shot at 50-75mg/day for a total between 350mg and 525mg/wk. This would be ample, and if you frontload that and run it for the last ~6 weeks of the diet (with the diet starting a good 4-5 weeks before the cycle begins, when calories are still high and catabolic response will be significantly lower) you will be very happy with the results and would not have any problem recovering within 4 weeks of the cycles end.

JMO


#10

[quote] Brook wrote:
400mg of Test a week over 10-13 weeks will be totally suppressive. 100% suppressive mate; I expect that this statement was more connected to the AM oral cycle you first outlined though… and you seem to have a reasonable understanding of the drugs - but i wanted to make sure you realised this fact.

I am confused though… you have made it clear you are not willing to have any real suppression - so why are you now going with a 10 week Test cycle?

I gathered from your bits of information you aren’t looking to gain weight, but lose fat and want the AAS to preserve (at least) your existing muscle while you diet down?

If this is the case, then i wonder what your stats are currently and what the goal is - this information is really quite necessary to be able to recommend a cycle for you…

It is generally well accepted that a drug such as Anavar (for example) alone would not really be strong enough of an anabolic to preserve muscle while dieting down to any great degree… HOWEVER, you are a natural trainee (i assume) and depending on your stats, you are not going to be trying to hold onto a massive or super-natural amount of muscle, so even the mild anabolism from a drug like that would be helpful in preserving your lean tissue.

I would have expected if you cycle 4-500mg Test with a really quite disciplined and strict cutting regime - that you may well grow into your goal. Adding muscle and losing fat.

As i think has been outlined to you above (i skimmed it only) the use of Dbol in the AM with Var steadily throughout would be very effective for your goal - and IMO your suppression would be significantly less to recover from using that cycle than if you ran a med length Test ester over 10-13 weeks.

I would suggest maybe something like Test Propionate shot at 50-75mg/day for a total between 350mg and 525mg/wk. This would be ample, and if you frontload that and run it for the last ~6 weeks of the diet (with the diet starting a good 4-5 weeks before the cycle begins, when calories are still high and catabolic response will be significantly lower) you will be very happy with the results and would not have any problem recovering within 4 weeks of the cycles end.

JMO[/quote]

good post…OT, looking solid in your profile pics Brook, well done.


#11

Thanks bruv :wink:


#12

On your concern of quick recovery,

Recovery is either always or virtually always quick when (no particular order):

  1. There is no pre-existing issue of low testosterone or past history of steroid use in a manner that caused slow recovery,

  2. Deca or SQ are not used,

  3. The total suppressed time is not over 8 weeks (10 usually is gotten away with but not absolutely always). This makes it a nice thing to use short actings at least at the end, so the cycle can be sold till almost right up to the recovery point. If longer actings are used, then actual duration of injections is less than 8 weeks.

So it is very doable.

But if you just like the idea of low suppression, yes, morning-only orals are a choice. I would not do a stack in that instance, as I have no evidence one way or the other as to whether stacks give this low or no suppressive effect, or not.

If Dianabol only, it can be 50 mg.

If oxandrolone only, it’s been a long time since trying that and knowing of anyone else trying it but I think the highest figure tried successfully was 20 mg morning only. Not sure.


#13

[quote]winkroar3 wrote:
Wow that’s quite a jump from 15mg of Dbol each morning. I guess i really have to try to get better at not wasting my time.[/quote]

Wasting your time? Reread my post, what i was trying to say seems clear to me but maybe i have expressed myself poorly.

What i want to do is lose some body fat using a very weak and low cycle so i can THEN do a proper cycle asap, my concept was that if i did a very weak morning based cycle thing then i wouldn’t have to wait the 10 weeks that would be reguired for a 6 week cycle with 4 weeks of additional PCT. I wanted to be able to go into the strong cycle asap.

[quote] Brook wrote:
400mg of Test a week over 10-13 weeks will be totally suppressive. 100% suppressive mate; I expect that this statement was more connected to the AM oral cycle you first outlined though… and you seem to have a reasonable understanding of the drugs - but i wanted to make sure you realised this fact.

I am confused though… you have made it clear you are not willing to have any real suppression - so why are you now going with a 10 week Test cycle?

I gathered from your bits of information you aren’t looking to gain weight, but lose fat and want the AAS to preserve (at least) your existing muscle while you diet down?

If this is the case, then i wonder what your stats are currently and what the goal is - this information is really quite necessary to be able to recommend a cycle for you…

It is generally well accepted that a drug such as Anavar (for example) alone would not really be strong enough of an anabolic to preserve muscle while dieting down to any great degree… HOWEVER, you are a natural trainee (i assume) and depending on your stats, you are not going to be trying to hold onto a massive or super-natural amount of muscle, so even the mild anabolism from a drug like that would be helpful in preserving your lean tissue.

I would have expected if you cycle 4-500mg Test with a really quite disciplined and strict cutting regime - that you may well grow into your goal. Adding muscle and losing fat.

As i think has been outlined to you above (i skimmed it only) the use of Dbol in the AM with Var steadily throughout would be very effective for your goal - and IMO your suppression would be significantly less to recover from using that cycle than if you ran a med length Test ester over 10-13 weeks.

I would suggest maybe something like Test Propionate shot at 50-75mg/day for a total between 350mg and 525mg/wk. This would be ample, and if you frontload that and run it for the last ~6 weeks of the diet (with the diet starting a good 4-5 weeks before the cycle begins, when calories are still high and catabolic response will be significantly lower) you will be very happy with the results and would not have any problem recovering within 4 weeks of the cycles end.

JMO[/quote]

Yeah mate i realize a 10-13 week cycle of test will be totally suppressive and your correct in reading that i wanted the early morning cycle to not suppress me, not the test cycle planned after wards. As i said to WINK i only care about suppression because i wanted a fast recovery so i could get into the injectable cycle asap instead of waiting the prerequisite time.

All you have said will be taken on board.

My stats aren’t amazing, because of my chronic knee injuries i have a large upper body, with 18+arms etc but my thighs are tiny due to not being able to get more then 2 consistent years training legs in a row:(. Only my calves are big and that’s purely cause i hit the genetic jack pot on them, 17.5 inches and i don’t train them (i know that’s not huge but i don’t want larger calves with such small upper legs). I am 195cms of UNFORTUNATELY mainly upper body:(. My goals for this cycle were just to drastically increase my leg size, that’s all really. Obviously any other size and strength gains would be great!

Thanks a lot for your help, once again you have shown how helpful you are:).


#14

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
On your concern of quick recovery,

Recovery is either always or virtually always quick when (no particular order):

  1. There is no pre-existing issue of low testosterone or past history of steroid use in a manner that caused slow recovery,

  2. Deca or SQ are not used,

  3. The total suppressed time is not over 8 weeks (10 usually is gotten away with but not absolutely always). This makes it a nice thing to use short actings at least at the end, so the cycle can be sold till almost right up to the recovery point. If longer actings are used, then actual duration of injections is less than 8 weeks.

So it is very doable.

But if you just like the idea of low suppression, yes, morning-only orals are a choice. I would not do a stack in that instance, as I have no evidence one way or the other as to whether stacks give this low or no suppressive effect, or not.

If Dianabol only, it can be 50 mg.

If oxandrolone only, it’s been a long time since trying that and knowing of anyone else trying it but I think the highest figure tried successfully was 20 mg morning only. Not sure.

[/quote]

Bill thanks a lot for your great help and knowledge. Nothing i can really say back to the above because you have answered all my questions. Thanks mate


#15

Glad it was of help!


#16

Do you have access to high quality HGH at all?
I would jump on some GH, get some physio work, lay off heavy leg training for a while and bring those knees up to full strength before I do any serious cycle.
Just my 2c


#17

With anything i can get i can never be sure that it is high quality, BUT i can get HGH enough for a medium-high dosed month for 800, i’v read you need to run it for at least 4-6months to get any muscular benefits, i don’t really want to spend 9600 a year on that stuff ahah. I’m only a uni student and i think i’d have to do something immoral to get that money. But thanks for the suggestion buddy. The knee joint itself is going ok, only problem is cause I’m 123kgs and around 124-5kgs clothed there is a lot of stress on my joints etc.