Indigo & Olympic Lifting Question

Coaching Lab Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
1

Hi Christian, as someone with a oly background I wanted to get you opinon on how useful you think Indigo may be for Olympic lifting & low rep training in general.

I ask because I’ve recenlty purchased some Indigo for the first time and if understand indigo right it causes the muscles to take in more glucose form carbs so you can eat more carbs without any of them being converted to fat.

But I got to thinking and if I understand low rep training (1-5 reps) right it doesnâ??t primarily use glycogen as fuel. So after a strength workout you havenâ??t depleted the glycogen from your muscles the way you would during a bodybuilding style workout with higher reps.

I’m a masters lifter who primarily does the classic lifts for 1-2 reps @ 80-100% 3 days a week and squats 3 reps a set, 3 days a week. I do pulls/rdl’s for 3-5 reps and I do add a smattering of lower/upper back work and some dips/chins here and there for higher reps but nothing compared to someone who might do a more general strength or bodybuilding program…

I guess I’m wondering if I’m not burning up that much glycogen during my lifting how useful Indigo would be me?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

2

[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
Hi Christian, as someone with a oly background I wanted to get you opinon on how useful you think Indigo may be for Olympic lifting & low rep training in general.

I ask because I’ve recenlty purchased some Indigo for the first time and if understand indigo right it causes the muscles to take in more glucose form carbs so you can eat more carbs without any of them being converted to fat.

But I got to thinking and if I understand low rep training (1-5 reps) right it doesnâ??t primarily use glycogen as fuel. So after a strength workout you havenâ??t depleted the glycogen from your muscles the way you would during a bodybuilding style workout with higher reps.

I’m a masters lifter who primarily does the classic lifts for 1-2 reps @ 80-100% 3 days a week and squats 3 reps a set, 3 days a week. I do pulls/rdl’s for 3-5 reps and I do add a smattering of lower/upper back work and some dips/chins here and there for higher reps but nothing compared to someone who might do a more general strength or bodybuilding program…

I guess I’m wondering if I’m not burning up that much glycogen during my lifting how useful Indigo would be me?

Thanks in advance for your advice![/quote]

As of this year I’m a master lifter too :wink: My workouts look kinda like this:

DAY 1 (HARD DAY)
Snatch work up to training max (allowed to miss a weight once)
Power snatch 5 sets of 3-5
Snatch-grip high pull from the hang 5 sets of 3-5 reps
Clean-grip pull from the hang hang 5 sets of 3-5 reps
Deadlift + shrugs and going on toes 5 sets 3-5 reps

DAY 2 (LOWER STRESS DAY)
1 pwr snatch + 1 snatch work up to 2-3 sets at 80%
Clean work up to about 85-90%
Power jerk work up to about 85-90%
Bench press 5 x 3-5
Incline bench press 5 x 3-5

DAY 3 (MODERATE DAY)
1 snatch from hang + 1 snatch from floor work up to 2-3 sets of 80-85%
Power jerk work up to about 90-95%
Front squat 5 x 1-3
Back squat 5 x 1-3
1/2 front squat 3 x 3 with back squat weight

DAY 4 (OL ONLY DAY)
Snatch
Clean & jerk
Work up to a training max

I then take one day off and start the cycle again.

REGARDING THE 5 SETS OF 3-5: I use a fixed weight for all the sets. My goal is to get 5 sets of 5 with the same weight. I cannot increase the weight until I can get all 5 sets of 5. When I do, I increase the weight by 5-10kg the next workout. If I can’t get 5 x 5 (e.g. 5/4/4/3/3) I stick with the same weight.

Same thing for 5 sets of 1-3 but with lower reps.

Anyway… that’s just to put things into context.

INDIGO 3-G does more than just send carbs to the muscles. It makes the muscles more sensitive to insulin. Which means that more of the NUTRIENTS you eat will be stored in the muscles. This also means protein. So INDIGO will increase both the rate of recovery AND muscle growth/repair post-training.

So even if shuttling carbs into the muscle wasn’t important for olympic lifting, it would still help. But I’m not convinced that glycogen isn’t important in olympic lifting. Sure on paper it looks like we would only use the phosphagens (ATP, creatine) for energy and that carbs wouldn’t be important. Well, having done olympic lifting on a low carbs diet I can tell you that carbs ARE important.

Sure INDIGO will help someone build more muscle and lose more fat. But it’s also a great health product. It is probably one of the strongest natural anti-inflamatory there is (I combine it with curcumin and flameout and I have zero joint/tendon issues).

3

Thanks for the input! I’ll keep on the Indigo-3G.

Your program has made me curious though and I think I may borrow a few things from it. I have a few questions:

You do the clean pulls from the hang as high pulls as well? I’m guessing the high pull is more to work the back then technique since your trying to pull it high rather than drop under?

I noticed you max on the snatch twice a week or so but you only go up to 90% on the clean then a max once week. I’m guessing the clean is easier for you than the snatch? I’m the opposite I have more issues with my clean so I tend to focus on it more.

It looks like you prefer the power jerk instead of split jerk?

You have two bench movements, is there a reason you choose those over say a push press movement?

Deadlift + shrug - I’m guessing that’s a clean dl?

One thing I like about yours is you have your assistance work grouped together each day - pull day, push day, squat day. For someone training only 3 days a week you think it’d be better to do one of each each day - pull/push/squat in each session after classic lift work?

What do you think is the biggest thing that separates a master’s lifter from a younger lifter? My guess is recovery ability and less life stressors (full time job/family/etc.).

Here’s my current plan:

1

Snatch to max 4x2,2-3x1 85-95% waved
Back SQ 8x3 (work up to heaviest triple)
Riser sn pull + sn dl 5x3+3-5
Incline db rows 4x6/weighted dips 4x6

2

clean & jerk 4x2,2-3x1 85-95% waved
front squat 6x3 (work up to heaviest triple)
cln pull + rdl 5x3 + 10/8/6/4
weighted pullups 5x5/push press 5 x 3

3

am -

back squat 6x3 (work up to 10 kg less than Monday)
Push Press 6x3 (work up to heavy triple)

pm -

block jerk work to max then back off for 10-16 lifts total above 80%)
jerk recoveries 3x3 100-120% jerk
no hands/no feet power clean 5x2
rev hypers 5x10/back ext 2x25

4

snatch competition style max ( 3 attempts no misses)
rest 15 minutes
clean & jerk competition style max (3 attempts no misses)
ghr 3 x reps/band goodmornings 2x20

I rotate the four workouts over 3 days so each workout is repeated every 9 days (except squats are locked to 3 days each week). The upper body assistance work can change or be dropped if time doesn’t permit and I try to throw in a few db curls once or twice a week just to keep the elbows healthy.

4

[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
Thanks for the input! I’ll keep on the Indigo-3G.

Your program has made me curious though and I think I may borrow a few things from it. I have a few questions:

You do the clean pulls from the hang as high pulls as well? I’m guessing the high pull is more to work the back then technique since your trying to pull it high rather than drop under?
[/quote]

No. I just focus on the explosion. The bar will travel to about my navel. Even with the snatch pull I do them move like the Russians: I explode with the legs, calves and traps but I don’t focus on pulling as high as I can (which would work more arm pull). The bar travels to about my sternum.

[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
I noticed you max on the snatch twice a week or so but you only go up to 90% on the clean then a max once week. I’m guessing the clean is easier for you than the snatch? I’m the opposite I have more issues with my clean so I tend to focus on it more.[/quote]

It’s mostly because I have a tender elbow and sometimes it can flare up when I receive a clean. This is also why I have two types of clean pulls: to keep up my strength in the clean motion.

[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
It looks like you prefer the power jerk instead of split jerk?
[/quote]

I never split jerked, always power jerked even when I competed. I could never get comfortable doing a split jerk… heck even lunges feel awkward to me.

[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
You have two bench movements, is there a reason you choose those over say a push press movement?
[/quote]

Actually today I did the push press press instead of the flat bench. These movements vary widely… it’s basically two pressing movements. I did Savickas press last week and snatch press the week prior.

[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
Deadlift + shrug - I’m guessing that’s a clean dl?
[/quote]

Clean deadlift… clean pull… clean extension (Takano’s terminology)… it has many names. It’s like a clean pull but I stay on my toes with the traps shoulders shrugged for a second on each rep. This is mostly to build size, get used to handling heavy weights and improve balance and stability in the full extension.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Normally I don’t like practicing “holding the pull at the top” since it can interfere with the lifter going under the bar fast. But in my case I’m very fast under the bar, but my issue is cutting my pull short and only relying on a quick extension of the knees and lower back… this tends to leave my pulls forward, so I’m drilling finishing my pull at the moment (which also explains why I do power snatch + snatch as well as hang snatch + snatch complexes in my training).

[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
One thing I like about yours is you have your assistance work grouped together each day - pull day, push day, squat day. For someone training only 3 days a week you think it’d be better to do one of each each day - pull/push/squat in each session after classic lift work?
[/quote]

3 days a week I’d pick one focus pattern (e.g. pull) which would be the target of the day… meaning that it would be trained all out for 2-3 movements. Then I’d pick a secondary pattern (e.g. squats) which would be trained with one exercise, but with conservative loads focusing more on speed. If remedial work is included (e.g. reverse hypers, back extension, rows, lateral raises, lunges, etc.) they are done at the end of the workout devoted to the lifting pattern involving the muscles being worked with the remedial exercise(s).

For example:

Day 1 - pull primary / squat secondary
Day 2 - Press primary / pull secondary
Day 3 - Squat primary / press secondary

[quote]Howard Roark wrote:
What do you think is the biggest thing that separates a master’s lifter from a younger lifter? My guess is recovery ability and less life stressors (full time job/family/etc.).
[/quote]

Recovery from maximal work and tendency to lose muscle mass. Which is why I prefer sets of 3 to 5 reps on the pulls (to keep up muscle mass and causing less CNS stress).

Another thing that master lifters tend to lose is speed/explosiveness. I train a lifter that went to the world championships about 13-15 years ago. After about 5 years off he decided to get back at it at close to 40 (not old old master, but still) it wasn’t long until he regained his previous strength levels on the strength lifts like squats, front squats and deads (even reaching an all time high on the bench press) but he noticed that it’s much harder to regain his speed.

Jumps and throws might be a good addition in that case.

I’ll get to your plan later, I have to head out. But one thing I want to point out is the importance of a planned progression model for the assistance work. With the classic lifts it’s fine to keep within a percentage range depending on how you feel due to technical efficiency elements. But I feel that a lot of weightlifters short change themselves strength-wise by not having a planned progression for their strength lifts.

Which is why I like the double progression model… my goal is to get 5 x 5 (for example). I start with a weight I can do 5 x 3 and only increase the weight when I reach 5 x 5.

5

That’s interesting about the speed declining with age, I hadn’t really thought about that, maybe I’ll in some jumps squats and plyo push ups…

You plan on doing any competitions as a masters?

I’ve done two locally here in Texas since I started Oly lifting about 1.5 years ago. I’m 36 and compete in the 77kgs (bw 75kg @ 5’8") I now encourage everyone to do comps, there so much fun!

I have the opposite problem as you in that I tend to over pull so I don’t usually do many powers, but I like that power + full combo idea you have.

I appreciate any input on my program; I originally just put it up as a reference.

A few things I will add:

The classic lifts programming I borrowed from the Kazakhstan youth program were basically you perform 10-16 lifts in the 80%-100% for 1-2 reps, being older though I opt for the lower range and usually only do 10-12 total reps. One reason I opted for this was I realized for me I need to spend more time with weights in the 80 & 90 plus range because my technique would be good all day long at anything below that but once I hit the heavy weights it all fell apart.

Iâ??m starting to believe that technique can only really be honed with heavy to max weights because it’s your technique with those weights, and holding position at limit weights, that matter most.

On my sn/cj competition style day I treat it as if was a competition in that I get 3 attempts at each lift and base my next week % off the best lift I hit, I see this a middle ground between “Bulgarian” daily max style training and % based training.

On my squats I’m using a tommy kono program. My squats are fairly weak, my best FS so far is 115kg & back is around 131 kg, so I feel I need to prioritize those with more frequency.

One cool thing I noticed when I first started Olympic lifting was I got leaner and gained about 10lbs pretty quickly without modifying my diet or trying to gain weight â??I attribute to the explosive lifting and the fact I went for squatting 1x week for years to 3-5 times a week!