No, sorry fool. I posted the source in another thread. Search, or use google and find it for yourself. I don’t have to post it again any time some random jackass demands proof. If you’re flat out too stubborn or just plain stupid to look it up on your own then you simply aren’t worth my time.
And the way I reacted is mostly out of frustration with fucking idiot demands of proof that water boarding is torture, or that the US signed fucking treaties banning torture, or that torture is illegal and on and on, and then refusing to read the proofs that are posted. Go fucking read it yourself.
Water boarding is considered torture by the United States.
The United States has signed and ratified the UN CAT Treaty.
The United States is guilty of torturing detainees.
The people responsible should be identified and punished, otherwise the United States as a whole is guilty.
hopefully we’ve established that you’re an idiot . . . . if water boarding is not torture - then you have no point to make here . . .
Don’t let the fact that the US has prosecuted people, including US citizens, under torture statutes for water boarding in the past deter you from your idiot fantasies that somehow it isn’t torture. Nope, no conflicts there. Move along.
Please reference this.
I already have in another thread. Look it up yourself or fuck off.
I’ll take that as you have no reference to back this up. Nice try though. Better luck next time when your interlocutor is naive enough to believe your bluster. Good day to you!
I have an idea. Google “waterboarding” and “USA”.
Even you really go out of your way you could even google “waterboarding”, “USA” and “Japan”.
I know, that would take all of 30 seconds out of your life and believing Bush administration talking points is soooo much easier but let us just give it a try.
Ready?
Go!
[/quote]
seriously - you’re still on that track after our discussion about it? Like I said - you run off and start new threads and make assumptions about the ones you’ve run from . . . maroon!
[quote]tme wrote:
No, sorry fool. I posted the source in another thread. Search, or use google and find it for yourself. I don’t have to post it again any time some random jackass demands proof. If you’re flat out too stubborn or just plain stupid to look it up on your own then you simply aren’t worth my time.
And the way I reacted is mostly out of frustration with fucking idiot demands of proof that water boarding is torture, or that the US signed fucking treaties banning torture, or that torture is illegal and on and on, and then refusing to read the proofs that are posted. Go fucking read it yourself.
Water boarding is considered torture by the United States.
The United States has signed and ratified the UN CAT Treaty.
The United States is guilty of torturing detainees.
The people responsible should be identified and punished, otherwise the United States as a whole is guilty.
[/quote]
And I responded to every one of those statements in other threads - GO READ YOURSELF!
hopefully we’ve established that you’re an idiot . . . . if water boarding is not torture - then you have no point to make here . . .
Don’t let the fact that the US has prosecuted people, including US citizens, under torture statutes for water boarding in the past deter you from your idiot fantasies that somehow it isn’t torture. Nope, no conflicts there. Move along.
Please reference this.
I already have in another thread. Look it up yourself or fuck off.
I’ll take that as you have no reference to back this up. Nice try though. Better luck next time when your interlocutor is naive enough to believe your bluster. Good day to you!
I have an idea. Google “waterboarding” and “USA”.
Even you really go out of your way you could even google “waterboarding”, “USA” and “Japan”.
I know, that would take all of 30 seconds out of your life and believing Bush administration talking points is soooo much easier but let us just give it a try.
Ready?
Go!
seriously - you’re still on that track after our discussion about it? Like I said - you run off and start new threads and make assumptions about the ones you’ve run from . . . maroon![/quote]
Are you calling him the color maroon? Or are you trying to call him a moron?
I’m calling him a maroon in a deference to a greater wit than yours . . . namely Bugs Bunny - wow, you missed that way up the thread there? and I quote . . .“what a maroon” . . . can’t read too good eh?
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I’m calling him a maroon in a deference to a greater wit than yours . . . namely Bugs Bunny - wow, you missed that way up the thread there? and I quote . . .“what a maroon” . . . can’t read too good eh?[/quote]
I’m not even sure what you just said, but no where did you mention Bugs Bunny in this thread. Forgive me if it is common knowledge that Bugs Bunny called people maroons. I guess instead of reading books and doing schoolwork I should have been paying more attention to the cartoons on TV.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
I’m calling him a maroon in a deference to a greater wit than yours . . . namely Bugs Bunny - wow, you missed that way up the thread there? and I quote . . .“what a maroon” . . . can’t read too good eh?
I’m not even sure what you just said, but no where did you mention Bugs Bunny in this thread. Forgive me if it is common knowledge that Bugs Bunny called people maroons. I guess instead of reading books and doing schoolwork I should have been paying more attention to the cartoons on TV.
V[/quote]
oh my . . . a cultural idiot . . . quick! - send him to cultural education camp . . .
how can anyone have missed Bugs Bunny cartoons and call themselves an American!!
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
tme wrote:
No, sorry fool. I posted the source in another thread. Search, or use google and find it for yourself. I don’t have to post it again any time some random jackass demands proof. If you’re flat out too stubborn or just plain stupid to look it up on your own then you simply aren’t worth my time.
And the way I reacted is mostly out of frustration with fucking idiot demands of proof that water boarding is torture, or that the US signed fucking treaties banning torture, or that torture is illegal and on and on, and then refusing to read the proofs that are posted. Go fucking read it yourself.
Water boarding is considered torture by the United States.
The United States has signed and ratified the UN CAT Treaty.
The United States is guilty of torturing detainees.
The people responsible should be identified and punished, otherwise the United States as a whole is guilty.
And I responded to every one of those statements in other threads - GO READ YOURSELF![/quote]
I wasn’t talking to you. And you responded with nothing more than your own opinion, which completely worthless. And not just to me, which it obviously is, but in general. On this and pretty much every other subject. You’re nearly as worthless as DickHunter.
And I responded to every one of those statements in other threads - GO READ YOURSELF!
I wasn’t talking to you. And you responded with nothing more than your own opinion, which completely worthless. And not just to me, which it obviously is, but in general. On this and pretty much every other subject. You’re nearly as worthless as DickHunter.
[/quote]
And your opinions are worth shit too . . . wow, glad we got that straightened out.
You are merely quoting the opinions of people you agree with, while I have done exactly the same. For every person you find who agrees with you, I can find one that agrees with me. That makes pretty much everything you have posted just as worthless as everything I have posted.
In the end - you decry the Government making one determination, and then when that determination is altered - you hail it as an achievement - and if it were altered back - you would decry it as an abomination- i would do the same in reverse - while the whole point is that all of this amounts to people’s opinions. Those in authority can have different opinions on the same issues, just as we do here - it does not make it the right one just because the current authority agrees with your opinion, as it does not conversely hold that the opposite would be true.
When you decry opinion - you decry reasoning. All of this comes down to opinions based on reasoning and nothing more - so you can get off of your high horse and just state your views along with everyone else and be happy that the torturous evil empire of America allows you the freedom to express your own opinion about such matters.
As I have posted before - we each have already come to our own conclusions about the matter. You will not find anyone who disagrees with you about this issue changing their minds simply because you can spout of your favorite sources that agrees with your views and I cannot accomplish the same from my perspective.
State your case, and there it is . . . A great many of us on here disagree with you and will gladly tell you so. Your opinions are just your best reasoning based on your views, values and principles, mine are the same as are Bush’s, Obama’s the SC Justices, so forth and so on . . .
It will never happen, although it would make me happy if it did. We all know that there are 2 sets of rules, and Bush is held to those less strict. Bush, Cheney, or any of those cronies will never ever see a day of disciplinary action whatsoever.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
It will never happen, although it would make me happy if it did. We all know that there are 2 sets of rules, and Bush is held to those less strict. Bush, Cheney, or any of those cronies will never ever see a day of disciplinary action whatsoever. [/quote]
oh hell - if we are going to punish the Bush Administration let’s punish them for something they actually did wrong - like not being true economic Republicans - seems holding office under false pretenses should be more punishable than this asinine discussion regarding whether or not a technique used on 3 terrorists was actually definable as torture or not (prior to the change in the laws). Let’s try every politician who has not kept every campaign promise for false advertising - there’s at least some kind of legal precedence for that rather than some Ex Post Facto shenanigans. . .
hopefully we’ve established that you’re an idiot . . . . if water boarding is not torture - then you have no point to make here . . .
Don’t let the fact that the US has prosecuted people, including US citizens, under torture statutes for water boarding in the past deter you from your idiot fantasies that somehow it isn’t torture. Nope, no conflicts there. Move along.
Please reference this.
I already have in another thread. Look it up yourself or fuck off.
I’ll take that as you have no reference to back this up. Nice try though. Better luck next time when your interlocutor is naive enough to believe your bluster. Good day to you!
I have an idea. Google “waterboarding” and “USA”.
Even you really go out of your way you could even google “waterboarding”, “USA” and “Japan”.
I know, that would take all of 30 seconds out of your life and believing Bush administration talking points is soooo much easier but let us just give it a try.
Ready?
Go!
[/quote]
I tried that and found out that you are very much wrong! While we did execute Japanese war criminals we didn’t execute them for waterboarding. Also the Japanese used what was known as the water cure, which involved force feeding someone water until their stomach was about to burst, it was a lot more severe than what the US is doing. Also we used waterboarding on North Vietnamese prisoners in Vietnam.
At the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, a.k.a. Tokyo Trials, that Begala says McCain is referring to, only seven Japanese war criminals were executed. Every one of them was convicted of either being complicit in or directly comitting atrocities and murder on a grand scale
On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a front-page photograph of a U.S. soldier supervising the questioning of a captured North Vietnamese soldier who is being held down as water was poured on his face while his nose and mouth were covered by a cloth. The picture, taken four days earlier near Da Nang, had a caption that said the technique induced “a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk.”
The article said the practice was “fairly common” in part because “those who practice it say it combines the advantages of being unpleasant enough to make people talk while still not causing permanent injury.”
The picture reportedly led to an Army investigation.
hopefully we’ve established that you’re an idiot . . . . if water boarding is not torture - then you have no point to make here . . .
Don’t let the fact that the US has prosecuted people, including US citizens, under torture statutes for water boarding in the past deter you from your idiot fantasies that somehow it isn’t torture. Nope, no conflicts there. Move along.
Please reference this.
I already have in another thread. Look it up yourself or fuck off.
I’ll take that as you have no reference to back this up. Nice try though. Better luck next time when your interlocutor is naive enough to believe your bluster. Good day to you!
I have an idea. Google “waterboarding” and “USA”.
Even you really go out of your way you could even google “waterboarding”, “USA” and “Japan”.
I know, that would take all of 30 seconds out of your life and believing Bush administration talking points is soooo much easier but let us just give it a try.
Ready?
Go!
I tried that and found out that you are very much wrong! While we did execute Japanese war criminals we didn’t execute them for waterboarding. Also the Japanese used what was known as the water cure, which involved force feeding someone water until their stomach was about to burst, it was a lot more severe than what the US is doing. Also we used waterboarding on North Vietnamese prisoners in Vietnam.
At the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, a.k.a. Tokyo Trials, that Begala says McCain is referring to, only seven Japanese war criminals were executed. Every one of them was convicted of either being complicit in or directly comitting atrocities and murder on a grand scale
On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a front-page photograph of a U.S. soldier supervising the questioning of a captured North Vietnamese soldier who is being held down as water was poured on his face while his nose and mouth were covered by a cloth. The picture, taken four days earlier near Da Nang, had a caption that said the technique induced “a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk.”
The article said the practice was “fairly common” in part because “those who practice it say it combines the advantages of being unpleasant enough to make people talk while still not causing permanent injury.”
The picture reportedly led to an Army investigation.
[/quote]
Col. Chase Nielsen’s captors were convicted of war crimes. he testified that was put under “water cure”. which is now being called waterboarding. its the same thing, pouring water on someones nose and mouth so it feels like they are drowning.
youre right about the execution part. but people were still convicted of war crimes for doing things like waterboarding. most were sentenced to hard labor.
texas sherif in 83 was convicted of violating human rights by waterboarding a prisoner.
as of 2006 the supreme court and the cia director decided waterboarding was illegal.
hopefully we’ve established that you’re an idiot . . . . if water boarding is not torture - then you have no point to make here . . .
Don’t let the fact that the US has prosecuted people, including US citizens, under torture statutes for water boarding in the past deter you from your idiot fantasies that somehow it isn’t torture. Nope, no conflicts there. Move along.
Please reference this.
I already have in another thread. Look it up yourself or fuck off.
I’ll take that as you have no reference to back this up. Nice try though. Better luck next time when your interlocutor is naive enough to believe your bluster. Good day to you!
I have an idea. Google “waterboarding” and “USA”.
Even you really go out of your way you could even google “waterboarding”, “USA” and “Japan”.
I know, that would take all of 30 seconds out of your life and believing Bush administration talking points is soooo much easier but let us just give it a try.
Ready?
Go!
I tried that and found out that you are very much wrong! While we did execute Japanese war criminals we didn’t execute them for waterboarding. Also the Japanese used what was known as the water cure, which involved force feeding someone water until their stomach was about to burst, it was a lot more severe than what the US is doing. Also we used waterboarding on North Vietnamese prisoners in Vietnam.
At the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, a.k.a. Tokyo Trials, that Begala says McCain is referring to, only seven Japanese war criminals were executed. Every one of them was convicted of either being complicit in or directly comitting atrocities and murder on a grand scale
On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a front-page photograph of a U.S. soldier supervising the questioning of a captured North Vietnamese soldier who is being held down as water was poured on his face while his nose and mouth were covered by a cloth. The picture, taken four days earlier near Da Nang, had a caption that said the technique induced “a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk.”
The article said the practice was “fairly common” in part because “those who practice it say it combines the advantages of being unpleasant enough to make people talk while still not causing permanent injury.”
The picture reportedly led to an Army investigation.
[/quote]
Sifu - I always enjoy reading your posts (even the ones I disagree with) because you bring such a calm rational manner to the discussion.
However, I am afraid no matter how calm, rational, logical and factual you are, these rabid Bush-haters couldn’t care one iota. Their absolute derangement over the “Bush era” completely prohibits them from having an sane conversation. NO matter how many times you bring the facts to bear - they simply ignore them, or start another thread where they assume victory merely by the effort of stating their opinion.
as of 2006 the supreme court and the cia director decided waterboarding was illegal.[/quote]
and congratulations! - prevailing federal legal opinion changed in 2006 and so the technique is no longer practiced.
HOWEVER - at the time it was utilized, the prevailing federal legal opinion was that it did not constitute torture.
wonder of wonders . . . legal opinions can change (and consequently can change back) . . . that is why Ex Post Facto trials and prosecutions are prohibited by the Constitution.
Col. Chase Nielsen’s captors were convicted of war crimes. he testified that was put under “water cure”. which is now being called waterboarding. its the same thing, pouring water on someones nose and mouth so it feels like they are drowning.[/quote]
It is NOT the same thing. Forcing a funnel down a man’s mouth while pinching his nose shut and pouring mass quantities of water, bile, urine or other liquids into his stomach until it is near bursting and then beating him (“water cure”) is completely and utterly different from waterboarding.
[quote]
as of 2006 the supreme court and the cia director decided waterboarding was illegal.[/quote]
Yep they did. Now, if I’m correct then the waterboarding episodes on the 3 detainees took place before this SCOTUS decision. In this case you can cry and complain all you want but IrishSteel is right-- ex post facto investigations are not allowed, precisely BECAUSE legal opinion can change back and forth.
[quote]orion wrote:
So now that we hopefully have established that torturing as well as ordering torture is indeed against US law and since we have a new time line that makes it very likely that Bush ordered torture after the US Supreme Court has made it clear that the detainees at Guantanamo were protected by the Geneva Convention, what now?
This is not about whether he should have done it or not, whether is was ok or not, or whether you think water boarding is even torture or not.
This is about an administration knowingly violating US laws in an area that should be very near and dear to all of us, detaining and at least humiliating if not torturing people while ignoring the limits set by the Supreme Court.
So, what is more important, partisanship or the rule of law?
[/quote]
The ‘rule of law’, as you put it, is only possible if one has an objective set of ethics to which most rational men would subscribe. This does not yet exist. Therefore, laws are based upon what someone can get away with, not principles. Torture is defined as what can be done without upsetting the voters, not what principles/objective ethics would say.
Do most Americans rage against waterboarding? I think not. So, in the current sense of the rules, waterboarding is just fine.
(And most powerful people are devils anyway. Devils do as devils are.)
hopefully we’ve established that you’re an idiot . . . . if water boarding is not torture - then you have no point to make here . . .
Don’t let the fact that the US has prosecuted people, including US citizens, under torture statutes for water boarding in the past deter you from your idiot fantasies that somehow it isn’t torture. Nope, no conflicts there. Move along.
Please reference this.
I already have in another thread. Look it up yourself or fuck off.
I’ll take that as you have no reference to back this up. Nice try though. Better luck next time when your interlocutor is naive enough to believe your bluster. Good day to you!
No really he did, also google is your friend, if you google something and can’t find anything then come here and ask for it stating you tried to search it out on your own. If you are really interested in learning then this is what you do, if you mereley want to continue to believe what you do and defend your position, then you don’t. It’s pretty simple.
V
Right - and if he really wants to make a credible assertion he should back it up. It’s really so very simple. And only someone who can’t back up their assertions would react the way he did.
Like he said, he already did, spoonfeeding people who won’t look up information themselves is not his job. Stop being so lazy.
V[/quote]
It’s not HIS job to back up HIS accusations?
O, I see - it’s MY job to go find evidence to back up HIS claim?
[quote]tme wrote:
No, sorry fool. I posted the source in another thread. Search, or use google and find it for yourself. I don’t have to post it again any time some random jackass demands proof. If you’re flat out too stubborn or just plain stupid to look it up on your own then you simply aren’t worth my time.
And the way I reacted is mostly out of frustration with fucking idiot demands of proof that water boarding is torture, or that the US signed fucking treaties banning torture, or that torture is illegal and on and on, and then refusing to read the proofs that are posted. Go fucking read it yourself.
Water boarding is considered torture by the United States.
The United States has signed and ratified the UN CAT Treaty.
The United States is guilty of torturing detainees.
The people responsible should be identified and punished, otherwise the United States as a whole is guilty.
[/quote]
Yeah, I demand proof. I know in your world that makes me a jackass. Fortunately, the world (you know, that place you can see dimly, that exists outside your precious little bubble) sees things otherwise.