T Nation

Increased LH = Increased Test?

I was watching a special about the Olympics and they had a segment where they mentioned that they test for steroids by looking at the ratio of Luteinizing Hormone to Testosterone. After doing some quick internet research, I was curious if you could take a drug like Luveris that imitates your LH and makes you produce more test. Almost a “self produced” cycle kind of thing.

Edit: I have no desire to actually inject myself with fertility drugs, I was just curious as to what the vets think. This is purely hypothetical.

This is why HCG is used.

They do test for hCG

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HCG doubled my test levels. Started at top of the normal range.

Are you using an AI. If not I would expect the increase in your test level to soon be undermined by aromatase pressure. You could actually end up lower than when you started. You are talking free t level right?

Why say things like this, that taking HCG could (supposedly) result in lower testosterone than not taking it?

I also did not know about “aromatase pressure.” Is that measured in p.s.i.?

It is my understanding that raising one’s base line free t level with either hCG or exogenous test will trigger an increase in estrogen thereby nullifying any benefit unless an AI is used.

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
It is my understanding that raising one’s base line free t level with either hCG or exogenous test will trigger an increase in estrogen thereby nullifying any benefit unless an AI is used.[/quote]

Same here.

Wow. “Nullifying any benefit” you say, and get agreement.

Is there a need to have a basis for what one says, or is just coming up with some sort of rationalization that seems on some surface level to make sense to oneself sufficient?

Because there is no basis for these statements other than surface assumption.

[quote]Dopa wrote:
HCG doubled my test levels. Started at top of the normal range.[/quote]

Could you elaborate? This is interesting stuff for sure.

I was reading some typical injection amounts were 125mg, I assume that’s bi-weekly but I can’t be sure.

How much did you use? Was it medically administered or on your own?

[quote]Darkane wrote:
Could you elaborate? This is interesting stuff for sure.

I was reading some typical injection amounts were 125mg, I assume that’s bi-weekly but I can’t be sure.

How much did you use? Was it medically administered or on your own?[/quote]

I started at the top of the range for testosterone levels. After 250 IU of HCG EOD for a month, my testosterone levels increased to almost double the top of the range.

I was being medically treated to help my fatigue and depression I’ve been experiencing.

The doctor was going more my symptoms than lab numbers. He wanted to add testosterone on top of this to see if that would help. However he wasn’t interested in my extremely high estradiol levels and didn’t think it was important. At that point I pulled the plug on his care.

I had all the signs of high estrogen (bloating, BPH, sexual dysfunction) but he didn’t want to listen. He had a huge ego and wasn’t interested in what a layman like me had to say. :slight_smile:

Since then I have self treated with testosterone mainly and keeping estradiol down with an AI. Although it gives me partial benefit I don’t think it’s the source of my chronic fatigue or depression.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Wow. “Nullifying any benefit” you say, and get agreement.

Is there a need to have a basis for what one says, or is just coming up with some sort of rationalization that seems on some surface level to make sense to oneself sufficient?

Because there is no basis for these statements other than surface assumption.[/quote]

Suck it up guys, and admit Bill’s point of contention is spot on. Good link next post btw Bill.

Thanks. It was great to finally see some nice research on exactly that subject. I had come up with low dose protocols simply from the practical experience point of view and some limited testing, and of course Dr Shippen has since clinically established similar protocols very well, but so far as I know it wasn’t until this recent study that researchers had done this quite valuable dose-response study as well as determining effect on intratesticular testosterone, which is a very important point for those on HRT that are concerned about fertility.

On the estrogen concern posted: It is true that it is even better to also monitor estrogen and keep it at a desirable (low-normal) level, using an AI if need be to achieve that. But what is not correct is an assumption that not doing so negates the effect of the increased testosterone, or assuming that it’s typically or often a particular problem when using appropriately low-dose HCG.

And there was no basis for saying that it would, other than unsupported guessing. Or at least I cannot imagine the basis, as it is not so and I don’t think it’s been claimed in scientific literature.

It is a problem when using the extremely excessive doses that have been recommended by other authors in the past (sometimes still today) and medically in the past (also still sometimes today.)

When using appropriate doses, the higher testosterone level is just as beneficial as equally higher testosterone achieved any other way, including simply having higher testosterone naturally.

[quote]Dopa wrote:
Darkane wrote:
Could you elaborate? This is interesting stuff for sure.

I was reading some typical injection amounts were 125mg, I assume that’s bi-weekly but I can’t be sure.

How much did you use? Was it medically administered or on your own?

I started at the top of the range for testosterone levels. After 250 IU of HCG EOD for a month, my testosterone levels increased to almost double the top of the range.

I was being medically treated to help my fatigue and depression I’ve been experiencing.

The doctor was going more my symptoms than lab numbers. He wanted to add testosterone on top of this to see if that would help. However he wasn’t interested in my extremely high estradiol levels and didn’t think it was important. At that point I pulled the plug on his care.

I had all the signs of high estrogen (bloating, BPH, sexual dysfunction) but he didn’t want to listen. He had a huge ego and wasn’t interested in what a layman like me had to say. :slight_smile:

Since then I have self treated with testosterone mainly and keeping estradiol down with an AI. Although it gives me partial benefit I don’t think it’s the source of my chronic fatigue or depression.[/quote]

Dopa,

Do you know if your extremely high estradiol level was exacerbated by the 250IU EOD hCG you ran for 1 month or was this imbalance present before and after?

Bill,

I appreciate you shedding clarity on the hCG/estradiol issue.

As you stated it may be optimal to add a low dose AI to the mix, however my contention that not doing so might erase all benefit and then some, was indeed overreaching.

I stand corrected.

On further thought, I realize now that your statement might not have been intended to be as broad as I read it. While not correct that it negates all activities, for example in an individual case it might be the case (though usually is not)

That say if desired pro-sexual effect were the reason for the use, if an individual had high estrogen problems in the first place relative to testosterone then worsening of that condition might “negate” that specific intended benefit.

So if that was your intent then I did not read your meaning correctly.

Absolutely fascinating. So, then, HCG could boost test levels without the risk of shutdown? I suppose this would be considerably less benificial in terms of anabolism than a standard AAS cycle? Would this ‘desensitize’ any part of the endocrine system over time?

Would there be any negatives associated with this, if estrogen levels were kept in check with an AI?

[quote]Dopa wrote:
Darkane wrote:
Could you elaborate? This is interesting stuff for sure.

I was reading some typical injection amounts were 125mg, I assume that’s bi-weekly but I can’t be sure.

How much did you use? Was it medically administered or on your own?

I started at the top of the range for testosterone levels. After 250 IU of HCG EOD for a month, my testosterone levels increased to almost double the top of the range.

I was being medically treated to help my fatigue and depression I’ve been experiencing.

The doctor was going more my symptoms than lab numbers. He wanted to add testosterone on top of this to see if that would help. However he wasn’t interested in my extremely high estradiol levels and didn’t think it was important. At that point I pulled the plug on his care.

I had all the signs of high estrogen (bloating, BPH, sexual dysfunction) but he didn’t want to listen. He had a huge ego and wasn’t interested in what a layman like me had to say. :slight_smile:

Since then I have self treated with testosterone mainly and keeping estradiol down with an AI. Although it gives me partial benefit I don’t think it’s the source of my chronic fatigue or depression.[/quote]

Thanks for that response. Good stuff, surprised that your doc didn’t use an AI, even a low dose Adex or something.