In My Opinion... We Suck

[quote]IronNation14 wrote:
Strength is overlooked SO much for weightlifting, coaches assume that if you simply go through the O-lifts at about… 50-60% of your 1RM, than you’ll automatically get strong and be able to throw up huge numbers.
[/quote]

Really? I thought the idea of training with 50-60% (hell, with just the bar, even) was that one isn’t likely to get any faster as weight is added so if one can’t move the bar fast… There really isn’t any point adding weight to the bar as yet. Also, there isn’t any point working with more than 50-60% when technique is shit. One is only likely to get injured and to reinforce bad technique.

[quote]
This can also be true for a 18-year-old American football player who has been ‘going againt the norm’ and strength training seriously (heavy) since they were 13 and than one day decide to start O-lifting; but, they won’t be as efficient in the lifts at first, with practice they become much more technical and, this is how the US Olympic Weightlifting Team is born… [/quote]

uh… but I thought your point was that the US Olympic Weightlifting Team wasn’t particularly good…

[quote]debraD wrote:
I don’t know a lot of coaches but the ones I have met have ALL put a strong emphasis on strength and squatting.
[/quote]

yeah…

i don’t know why it is that periodically people come and say things like:

‘the trouble with north american weightlifting is that people think you don’t have to be strong / train for strength’

where the hell are people getting this idea from??

i would think that the main reason for not being so good is because people are too gung ho with throwing weight around and not putting in enough time (particularly from a young age) on technique.

To Ironnation, in response to plyo’s I don’t think they are worthless, I’ve done a bit of jumping in my training. But to spend 20% of the time doing plyos and only 15% doing the lifts? I don’t think so.

It is important to spend time doing technique work, but you do need to go heavy, you can do all the lifts at 60% you want, but that won’t prepare for what a lift at 95%+ feels like.

And I’m going to throw myself out there and say I agree that some (not all) americans DO put too much emphasis on technique and not enough on strength. The most extreme example of this is Derrick Johnson, on many of his vids he writes it’s all technique, and they only squat once a week. And the cal strength lifters only squat twice a week I believe. The biggest squatter there by far is donny and that’s because he previously trained under abadjiev. You certainly aren’t going to find many top european/asian lifters with squat volume that low.

And if you think the american lifters are plenty strong check out:

2 days before the worlds! That’s the level of strength you need if you are really going to be the best

The Ox Man,

Thanks for the reply. I’m glad to see someone understands the usefulness of explosive plyometrics and the combination of Strength and Technique. Great stuff, love reading what everyone thinks.

Strength Kills.
G.

ah i see, squat volume is lower. cue discussion about ‘suppliments’.

So . . . much . . . to . . . say . . . must . . . study . . . walk . . . away . . .

[quote]TheJonty wrote:
So . . . much . . . to . . . say . . . must . . . study . . . walk . . . away . . .[/quote]

Study schmuddy… :wink:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:
So . . . much . . . to . . . say . . . must . . . study . . . walk . . . away . . .[/quote]

Study schmuddy… ;)[/quote]

Haha, when you’ve missed a few hours/days/weeks of lecture, studying at the end becomes imperative :wink:

[quote]alexus wrote:
ah i see, squat volume is lower. cue discussion about ‘suppliments’. [/quote]

That was definitely not where I was going. You don’t need to be on drugs to be able to squat more than twice a week

i know! i’m teasing :-p

[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
To Ironnation, in response to plyo’s I don’t think they are worthless, I’ve done a bit of jumping in my training. But to spend 20% of the time doing plyos and only 15% doing the lifts? I don’t think so.

It is important to spend time doing technique work, but you do need to go heavy, you can do all the lifts at 60% you want, but that won’t prepare for what a lift at 95%+ feels like.

And I’m going to throw myself out there and say I agree that some (not all) americans DO put too much emphasis on technique and not enough on strength. The most extreme example of this is Derrick Johnson, on many of his vids he writes it’s all technique, and they only squat once a week. And the cal strength lifters only squat twice a week I believe. The biggest squatter there by far is donny and that’s because he previously trained under abadjiev. You certainly aren’t going to find many top european/asian lifters with squat volume that low.

And if you think the american lifters are plenty strong check out:

2 days before the worlds! That’s the level of strength you need if you are really going to be the best[/quote]

Do you guys know anyone else that can casually FS 230 x2 2 days out from a comp? Do you guys know what this means? It means that 230 x2 is about 90% of his 2RM if not lower for him and he is insanely strong. Granted his technique IS VERY SHARP as well.

BUT I’m willing to bet any of the US National team lifters/ any lifter in the world, if they could make 230 x2 regular and about 90% of their 1RM they could hit at least 160/195 without Lu’s sharpness.

Most of the top guys have good technique. The extra bit won’t give them a big gain as lumping on 20-30kg to their FS. Obviously strength is no cure for bad technique.

There is a reason why Wilson can hit 189…he can FS 215-219 and he started young.

Starting young like others have mentioned has a HUGE BONUS. When your 10-11 you can learn technique well. Your a bad coach if you can’t get a lifter to good technique if they are getting coached 3x a week. If your first coach isn’t good it is an up hill struggle to change bad technique later on. It all depends on how ingrained this is.

There is a reason why my little bro can FS 2x his bw. He started young when he was light and his body has adapted to training. Admittedly he doesn’t go as heavy as I’d have him go as his coach is more cagey and more about long term development.

I’m going to change up my routine next after my comp. I’m going to squat 3x a session every other session and the normal sessiosn will be just the 2x instead. I can lift less because my technique is plenty good enough. It’s my basic strength is low.

Koing

[quote]alexus wrote:

[quote]IronNation14 wrote:
Strength is overlooked SO much for weightlifting, coaches assume that if you simply go through the O-lifts at about… 50-60% of your 1RM, than you’ll automatically get strong and be able to throw up huge numbers.
[/quote]

Really? I thought the idea of training with 50-60% (hell, with just the bar, even) was that one isn’t likely to get any faster as weight is added so if one can’t move the bar fast… There really isn’t any point adding weight to the bar as yet. Also, there isn’t any point working with more than 50-60% when technique is shit. One is only likely to get injured and to reinforce bad technique.

I’ve never seen any coach do 50-60% for long in England. The only time they ever do that is when the lifter is a beginner and they do lighter weights and build up. Yes it is correct they build the weights up.

My coach has taught me good technique and gave me a good foundation and I’ve decided to run with it myself. He pushed squats but it’s only now after 12yrs that I’ve realised that STRENGTH IS KING. The front squat is the biggest barometer of what your ‘maximum’ will be. My coach went off % and ratio’s etc and imo didn’t push the squats as high as I’m pushing it with my own lifters.

I coach OxMan and a few others. My coach will coach all lifters but I’ll select who I spend my time with. I’m also not paid, nor is my coach but he is better for the sport in encouraging more lifters where I’ll only pick dedicated lifters from the get go.

Also to note there is a HUGE difference between the A group.

I see it as a 3 tier.

Top 1-3
Middle pack 3-4
Bottom 2-3

The Top 1-3 are about 10-15kg more then anyone else in their totals!

Koing

[quote]Koing wrote:
I’m going to change up my routine next after my comp. I’m going to squat 3x a session every other session and the normal sessiosn will be just the 2x instead. I can lift less because my technique is plenty good enough. It’s my basic strength is low.

Koing[/quote]

So where you currently do FS, sn, c&J, FS are you going to add another FS between the lifts?

Damn I can’t stop watching Lu Xiaojun’s Front Squat. His strength is beyond my comprehension.

[quote]Koing wrote:

Obviously strength is no cure for bad technique.

Koing[/quote]

It sure as hell will help though.

Hits the nail on the head, also highlights lack of weak point training…

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/training-articles/olympic-lifting-why-do-we-suck/

Chiggy can do this just for shits and giggles…

[quote]Cprimero wrote:
Hits the nail on the head, also highlights lack of weak point training…

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/training-articles/olympic-lifting-why-do-we-suck/[/quote]

Aw shit, not this article again . . .

[quote]Cprimero wrote:
Chiggy can do this just for shits and giggles…
[/quote]

And that proves what? That he’s a freak? That the Russians do perhaps more assistive strength work (especially of note being presses and push presses) than other major players in the international weightlifting scene? That this overhead assistive work probably carries over to a lift he doesn’t train very often? I’m confused, do you think we should be training bench?

For the record, the week after nationals in May this year, I was basically taking a week off of serious training and just got in the weight room a few times to screw around. Hadn’t touched a bench press in well over a year and hadn’t trained it seriously since I started o-lifting. On a whim I decided to see what I could do and benched 315 for a double. My training leading into nationals (and for a good while before that as well) had, for better or worse, consisted entirely of snatch, clean and jerk, front squats and back squats. What does that prove?

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Cprimero wrote:
Chiggy can do this just for shits and giggles…
[/quote]

And that proves what? That he’s a freak? That the Russians do perhaps more assistive strength work (especially of note being presses and push presses) than other major players in the international weightlifting scene? That this overhead assistive work probably carries over to a lift he doesn’t train very often? I’m confused, do you think we should be training bench?

For the record, the week after nationals in May this year, I was basically taking a week off of serious training and just got in the weight room a few times to screw around. Hadn’t touched a bench press in well over a year and hadn’t trained it seriously since I started o-lifting. On a whim I decided to see what I could do and benched 315 for a double. My training leading into nationals (and for a good while before that as well) had, for better or worse, consisted entirely of snatch, clean and jerk, front squats and back squats. What does that prove?[/quote]

My bad, getting overall strong as hell is useless.