T Nation

Immigration Reform


So, for all those "conservatives" and constitutional adherents...

How long before your elected officials cave and immigration reform passes? Either with or without the security measures.


Shortly. It's a dead issue.


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So, in the U.S if you get caught entering the country illegally, your punishment is, citizenship?

Question. What are the various punishments for those caught entering the country illegally in other countries??

I know it's supposed to be jail and deportation here, but that was before we fell down the rabbit hole.


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In Italy, you can be detained at a hospital or clinic, then handed over to immigration authorities.

You are then jailed, fined, deported, and THEN you are allowed to fight your case.

You have kids in the country (which does not give birthright citizenship)? Too bad.

You have lived there illegally for years ? Too bad.

You are OUT.


Eh... I see both sides really. Point being, if these people are coming from a shithole country, it is almost as if they are refugees more than anything. And to be honest, the vast majority of countries aren't' as good as the US, even given its shortcomings.

I don't have a problem with amnesty if certain conditions are in place, the main one being they aren't allowed to vote until they complete the existing naturalization process.


So lets say that only 10% of these illegals are bad eggs....

That means we only get 2.2 million criminals out of this.

What could possibly go wrong?


And for those who think Republicans need to pass amnesty to win the Latino vote, I have some bad news for you...

Look what happened in 1988, just 2 years after Republicans gave full amnesty...

"According to government statistics, only 3,710,000 Latinos voted in the Presidential Election of 1988, although their share of the electorate increased to about 7% of the national electorate. According to CBS / New York Times Exit Polls, Bush won 30.85% of the Hispanic nationwide vote, and Dukakis received 70.15% of the nationwide vote."


Not even 31% of the Latino vote, even after full blown amnesty.


I would grant some type amnesty.

It would give them no voting rights and no benefits. Basically, they can stay here and work and continue the citizenship process. They would get in the back of the line... the big thing is they just would be able to live and work w/o the fear of being deported.

This is 11 million folks. And we all know that they will consume 3x more in bennies then they will pay in taxes. So no benefits.

And building the fucking fence. 3 of them. With a damn moat. With sharks.


The border fence provision has been passed TWICE already, in 1996 and 2006, and they STILL have not built it.

Why would you think they will build it now ?

Business wants their cheap labor, everyday, all day, 24/7, no matter what foolish laws are passed.


Sad but true. Dems want the votes and the base and the Reps want to satisfy Big Business.

How the hell are we supposed to compete with China, India, et al. at their .16 a hour labor rates....?


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So America becomes a banana republic, dictatorship led by a Bolivian general or a civil/race war. Sounds like a great place to bring up the kids.

How about a cap of no more than 10% foreign born and those must be semi-skilled, English speaking and needed by industry? And of course some kind of response to major humanitarian crises but send them home when their country has cooled down?

Take a look at Niger and their birthrate.


Certainly would be nice to help them via migration to the states but not FEASIBLE without destroying America. Can you imagine if we did this with every third world country? There wouldn't be a US within a decade I can assure you.


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This isn't an easy problem to fix. Let me run down my conditions to try and clear up my stance:

1) No voting until completed the traditional citizenship process
2) Only crime on record is being here illegally.
3) 104 hours of community service a year
4) Amnesty is a temp proposition, and the amnesty card needs to be renewed a) annually if you don't owe income taxes b) bi-annually if you do owe income taxes
5) Not eligible for any (including tax credits) state assistance until traditional citizenship process is complete
6) Place in line for traditional citizenship process is BEHIND anyone who didn't stay in country illegally

I don't bother to worry about enforcement or fences, because we all know that shit won't ever happen from Washington.

And my intention is to only grant amnesty to those who would be productive members of society if given the chance, and ferret out the dregs that should just be sent home.

Common sense says you can't just let anyone and everyone flood into the country whenever they please without some sort of order. Nor do I condone giving gifts to people who broke the law. But, I do see some flaws in the law.

I'm not as much pro-amnesty as I am pro "fix the current system". So if we were to constrain those granted amnesty, the Dems looking to increase their voting stock would actually be okay with fixing the current system over gifts to criminals.


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This is the key. But it's not just business who wants their cheap labor. Whenever one of us shop at Walmart for our produce instead of your local farmer's market or CoOp then you're directly supporting this same cheap labor. Same goes for that chicken you (not you personally Max) buy from that same store. Demand for cheap produce and meat is going to drive the demand for cheap labor. And it doesn't get cheaper than our illegal immigrant population.

Maybe the answer is to get a better worker program in place so that we can legally hire these same people.




I see your point, but we pay for this either on the front end or the back end.

If we allow these cheap workers to come, then we also pay for educating their kids, when they get sick or incarcerated, and that is MUCH more costly.

Many of these people make so little money, they don't even qualify to file taxes, so the argument about them paying taxes is pretty moot.

You really want to solve this, start throwing people in jail, on both the supply and demand side. You put the illegal worker, and the business owner both in jail, the message will spread quickly.

What businesses are going to realize, that while they think they are enjoying their massive profits from cheap workers, they are allowing in more Democrats. In turn, more Democrats are elected, who then raise taxes and add regulations.

So again, you face this one way or another.