T Nation

IM vs. SQ Injections

Since TRT dosages of .5 ml 2X per week are used SQ do you guys see any reason why it wouldn’t be effective to go SQ with 1-2 ml 2X per week as well? Any one have experience with this?

hmmm I don’t think injecting 2ml of oil subQ would be very nice…

I have a link to the absorbtion rates IM vs. Sub-q somewhere, I will have to look around.

There is almost no point to pin test sub-q. Not to mention, why would you want to?

Just wondering if people do it cause its always been done that way or if there is a legitimate reason such as 33 Big Blinds said absorption.

What doctor recommends sub-q TRT? That seems like it would hurt.

Give it a read Blinds, its practically set in stone on the trt forum.
FWIW, I started Subq 2 weeks ago w 29g pins and they are 99.9% painless.
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/trt_protocol_for_injections

[quote]PKNY wrote:
Give it a read Blinds, its practically set in stone on the trt forum.
FWIW, I started Subq 2 weeks ago w 29g pins and they are 99.9% painless.
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/trt_protocol_for_injections
[/quote]

Interesting. Are there more studies than just the one by a Canadian research team?

I would never imagine sub-q vs IM for something like that. Backloading pins, lump of oil under the skin, longest injection times ever. But hell, if it works at a lower dosage, I guess whatever floats your boat.

I started researching it after I read KSMANS thread about it. Seems like it started to be a trend in 2007 as far as I can tell. The whole backloading and slow fill times is crap. It takes me about a minute to fill
a slin pin all the way out of the vial, and another say minute to inject it. Now, its just .5ml of 250/ml TEST E a few times a week for me, and all in different spots. 0 pain, 0 soreness, less E2 conversion and no lumps.

Keep in mind I am the worlds biggest pussy in terms of needles, and I now look forward to pin day.
Now, if you tried to pump 1-2ml in the same spot subq you would probably get some type of lump.
The thing that sold me on trying it is that I am on trt (blast and cruise, and blasting right now) and recently switched to injection, I wasn’t happy about the fact that a lifetime of shots IM would build up scar tissue, the subq method avoids that. Give it a shot (literally)hahah.

[quote]33 Big Blinds wrote:

I would never imagine sub-q vs IM for something like that. Backloading pins, lump of oil under the skin, longest injection times ever. But hell, if it works at a lower dosage, I guess whatever floats your boat.[/quote]

You sound pretty ignorant to using slin pins. Many guys on here that use AAS (and not just TRT doses) have stated they prefer using slin pins for their gear. Bonez and BushidoBadBoy were two that I remember, there are many others.

Why do you think there is lumps of oil under the skin?

Why do you think injection times are slow? Do you even know how long it takes?

The only real point that you have that is actually true is that backloading pins sucks, and the alternative to that is loading the pin directly which does take a while (about 1 minute for 0.5 cc of oil). I just pull the plunger back in mine and hang it in a toothrbush holder while I go do other shit or shower or something, then inject. Injection times are minimal (less than 10 seconds).

If I was pinning small amounts every day you bet your ass I’d use slin pins

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]33 Big Blinds wrote:

I would never imagine sub-q vs IM for something like that. Backloading pins, lump of oil under the skin, longest injection times ever. But hell, if it works at a lower dosage, I guess whatever floats your boat.[/quote]

You sound pretty ignorant to using slin pins. Many guys on here that use AAS (and not just TRT doses) have stated they prefer using slin pins for their gear. Bonez and BushidoBadBoy were two that I remember, there are many others.

Why do you think there is lumps of oil under the skin?

Why do you think injection times are slow? Do you even know how long it takes?

The only real point that you have that is actually true is that backloading pins sucks, and the alternative to that is loading the pin directly which does take a while (about 1 minute for 0.5 cc of oil). I just pull the plunger back in mine and hang it in a toothrbush holder while I go do other shit or shower or something, then inject. Injection times are minimal (less than 10 seconds).
[/quote]

While I think ignorant is a harsh word for this case, I’ll take it for its definition. You are right, I lack knowledge using slin pins with test. Compared to using a 23g or larger, I would associate anything longer than 20-30 seconds as a long time. Also, there are countless threads on every website with people complaining of PIP after not inserting the needle far enough in, so I thought it would be just as painful. The only thing I have any experience sub-q is HCG, and that is obviously water based.

I meant it in no other terms than its exact definition :slight_smile:

Give it a try. I have never done a single injection with a needle longer than a half inch, and no thicker than a 28 gauge for my TRT and have not had a single problem. I usually inject leaner muscles like the delts and tear drops of my quads.

But it appears we have gotten off the original topic (maybe my fault) of IM vs Sub-Q. I could be wrong, but I think I am doing an IM injection with my slin pins. As I mentioned, it is in lean muscle and I think a half inch needle is long enough to penetrate my dermis and what little fat surrounds that muscle before entering it. I have NOT tried to intentionally do a Sub-Q injection of Test. HCG plenty of times, but no oil. However I do know that small amounts (TRT doses) of oil are fine. I probably wouldn’t do it for more than that, but that’s just me and I don’t know if it would work or not.

yeah you see I thought when you used slin pins to inject your oils you were still pinning IM. I use a 5/8" needle to pin my delts, and although it’s 25g that’s still the same length as a slin pin is it not?

Oil based injections will leave a small lump, I have gone up to .4CC SC and it was extremely painful. I have tried Prop, Enanthate and Isocaproate sub-q, and surprising Prop was the best in terms of pain and length of the obvious depot lingering.

IMO just get comfortable with unconventional IM injection sites, the cycle I’m starting right now I will be trying lats, traps and calves on the recommendation of my training partner as low-pain easy injection alternatives to the classics sites such as glutes, side delts, triceps etc…

If you do decide to do Sub-Q, several prominent American UGLs are offering T Undecanoate in dosages up to 600mg/ml, which would make SC injections much more applicable for TRT.

Cheers,
-PTD

*EDIT and caveat: never try suspension sub-q, omg its crippling. This thread reminded me and I tried to split a CC of 50mg/ml USP into three SC pins, still excruciatingly painful.

i use slin pins for biceps and triceps, but still do it intramuscular.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
yeah you see I thought when you used slin pins to inject your oils you were still pinning IM. I use a 5/8" needle to pin my delts, and although it’s 25g that’s still the same length as a slin pin is it not?[/quote]

My slin pins are actually half inch, so just slightly shorter.

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Oil based injections will leave a small lump, I have gone up to .4CC SC and it was extremely painful. I have tried Prop, Enanthate and Isocaproate sub-q, and surprising Prop was the best in terms of pain and length of the obvious depot lingering.

IMO just get comfortable with unconventional IM injection sites, the cycle I’m starting right now I will be trying lats, traps and calves on the recommendation of my training partner as low-pain easy injection alternatives to the classics sites such as glutes, side delts, triceps etc…

If you do decide to do Sub-Q, several prominent American UGLs are offering T Undecanoate in dosages up to 600mg/ml, which would make SC injections much more applicable for TRT.

Cheers,
-PTD

*EDIT and caveat: never try suspension sub-q, omg its crippling. This thread reminded me and I tried to split a CC of 50mg/ml USP into three SC pins, still excruciatingly painful. [/quote]

Dave are you using slin pins to pin those unconventional sites?

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
yeah you see I thought when you used slin pins to inject your oils you were still pinning IM. I use a 5/8" needle to pin my delts, and although it’s 25g that’s still the same length as a slin pin is it not?[/quote]

My slin pins are actually half inch, so just slightly shorter.[/quote]

ah well my muscles are obviously 1/8 of an inch bigger than yours so I need the extra length :slight_smile:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

Dave are you using slin pins to pin those unconventional sites?[/quote]

Yes I am