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I’m not sure what to think about AI’s yet. I don’t have personal experience so I can honestly only reference what I’ve read about their mechanism of action. Suicide AI’s are frightening to me but if I had swollen ankles I’d probably go that route. I’m still learning. If it works, then it works. I always prefer empirical evidence so experiences from guys that go that route is always welcome. How long have you been on Exemestane?
Ive used it as and when needed for well over a decade. Im 40 this year and was early to mid 20’s when I started messing with gear
Dont wish to sound rude but i really dont have time to sit and listen to all that. Would you care to summarize?
You made a comment that you do not understand why some people believe AIs are dangerous. I believe, if you listen to the link, you will understand the argument against AIs.
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I believe i will but i dont have 45 minutes spare at anytime soon man. Such is my life.
Thanks though
Well you’ve spent a good amount of time with, and have a great deal of experience that AI. I definitely won’t be the one to say it doesn’t suit you. There is so much information floating around that I don’t think it’s fair to propose parking a firm opinion in another person’s place if that is where they’ve found a level of unimpeded comfort.
You make a case based on a over a decade of personal experience. It is something worth my consideration when arguing the use of Arimidex over Aromasin since I have no personal experience with using either. I have only studied the differences in their methods of action. That being said, the effect of a particular AI in a man on Testosterone therapy hasn’t been studied clinically at great length by clinicians (to my knowledge) nearly as much as Testosterone. That is to say that these products we use were designed almost specifically for and studied by large in the female population. Experience in TRT in this particular aspect as well as many general others appears to be led by the experience of people undergoing treatment currently. Much of TRT’s protocols and medications have been adapted and modified from athletic steroid user protocols which have a long history.
Until Estrogen modulator drugs have been designed for and fine tailored to TRT, we will go on this way. Thank you for qualifying yourself through your experience…since that is what doctors and patients have been working with in the process of refining this field.
Opinions and experiences seem to be a highly mixed bag across the board for TRT in particular to subjects like these.
I listened to the information presented by Dr Rouzer in highpull’s link. The information presented a strong case for moving away from AI’s. Anastrozole, being the most common AI prescribed in TRT within the US was cited a few times though AI’s in general were a strong component in the lecture.
A few key take away points, from what I gathered, were:
That are no studies in clinical medicine showing that high Estrogens in men, E2 in particular, had ever caused health problems in men.
Particularly, every health study relative to men having high endogenous Estrogen levels and health issues were taken after the population of men already had prominent health issues and therefore the the relationship between high Estrogen and health problems in males was only causal but not definitive that the two were related (He goes into more depth about the this aspect of the discussion later).
The majority of previous clinical studies which he cited as claiming to support the evidence that high Estrogens in men could cause health issues, were actually based on early medical studies using the administration of an exogenous estrogenic chemical rather than Estrogen directly.
He notes the importance of having high Estrogen levels in the presence of high Testosterone levels for health by citing several prominent studies referring to numerous T/E imbalances leading to high mortality rates and common serious health complications resulting from a lack of a healthy balance in either.
He further shows clinical and medical evidence on how the direct administration of Estrogen has helped men recover from cancers (prostate most specifically), cardiovascular diseases, and orthopedic degeneration recovery when it was thought to be contraindicated for use.
Dr Rouzer sites that average young males at peak Testosterone levels in life also have a Estrogen rating closer to 100-120pg/mL rather than the 20-25pg/mL levels men have sought for Testosterone optimization in TRT.
He explains how the decrease in Estrogen in the aging population in males and females is correlated with cardiovascular issues, cancer, bone mineral loss related to more frequent fractures and osteoporosis. He also contrasts this with younger males and females who typically have these issues and are found to have low Estrogens.
He refers to many more recent medical journal publications which specifically point to higher Estrogen in men being associated with better memory, cognitive functioning, weight loss, sexual function, bone, and heart health. Many of the articles cited point to the exogenous use of Estrogen to enhance these functions and processes during administration periods.
He also compares data which indicates that AI’s impair the above functions and have been shown to create health issues that would not otherwise be seen.
The most interesting thing to me is his very forward statement that there is not a single study in modern medicine that indicates elevated Estrogens in males with healthy Testosterone has shown to create health issues in men and that the application of exogenous Estrogen in fact helps many health problems it was thought to be implicated in creating.
This presentation was given at least 4 years ago at a TRT seminar to confront the idea of using AI’s in Testosterone treatment. At the time, it was thought to be pretty controversial.
I’m missing a lot of what he covered here, but that’s a good chunk of it. Interesting stuff really.
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Thanks man you put some effort into the summary i appreciate it.
The split views seems to be between those who have used steroids for performance gains and those who have only ever done trt. For those who only do or have done trt then i can see why they may not feel an ai is needed. I will say my personal opinion in that is that the view is utter rubbish as everyone alive is different and what is right for one is wrong for another. Yes there are “groupings” of individuals that fall into categories but i know from bitter experience following the words of someone else can lead to drastic issues.
Such as way way back in the day people bound about the advice that if you was running over 500mg of test a week with a little kicker such as dianabol that one simply must use 12.5mg aroma or 0.5 arima everyday, or ED as phrased. Without it you would grow tits, turn gay (ffs no offence meant to anyone who is lol) and cry daily into your ice-cream.
So what did the younger me do? Of course, i followed the advice of these renowned “experts” across the forums.
What happened? CRASH!!! Wanna know the worst bit? The symptoms of low estro are easy to mix up with high estro. So what do you do? Bump up your ai dose! Fuck my life what a bad experience.
As i figured out then, quickly, we are all different. Back then my shbg must of been pretty high as i didnt even need an ai for years on 500-600mg test a week. Even with dbol.
That changed over the years and you get adept at reading your own body and feelings.
Would i ever consider not using an ai? Your having a laugh 
Would you like loss of libido? Mid sex lost erections on the rare moment you get a hardon? The almost breakdown of a marriage? Emotional instability? Fat gain? Tits!!! Inflamed nipples? God forbid ive seen friends have gyno get so out of control they produce fluids from their nipples!
How about uncontrollable acne? Maybe you fancy crying into your ice-cream or being so on edge you start beating on people for next to nothing? No? How about fluid retention? High blood pressure? You following me?
Ive been through the ringer with steroids and to a lesser part (thank god) with trt.
I know my body and i know i need to use an ai. Anyone saying anything different is talking to the wall in all honesty lol. If it works for them though? Well, we are all different… 
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I’ve caught that. Anyone who knows “the one and only way” are the ones I’m weary of. It’ll ultimately be about what works for me. There are a lot of flexible people on here, some have very strong opinions about particulars though we are all learning. No experts man. No experts among doctors…so no experts among experts either, yuh know? I just see what I can pick up. When I heard Aromasin I jumped. When I got your personal experience, I relaxed and opened my mind a bit. It’s important to know what others personal experiences are brother. People that know everything learn nothing and if I shut someone out because of one belief they have, I stand to lose a lot more valuable information.
I concur
Made this mistake in many areas of my life, paid dearly and often. “You must” in a fledgling science is usually followed by “oops” or silence.
Yeah, thought I was high on E2 a couple weeks ago…turns out I was low
Dude, I rule very little out at this point. An AI may be in my future. Dr Rouzer makes an interesting presentation, but, that’s what I take it as…interesting. I wouldn’t ever say “hell no I won’t use an AI because…because…well…someone said so…and they’re smart and things…so…uh that’s why”. If I need one, it’s in the cards. Some clinics wanna start me on them right off the tip, others are burning Anastrozole in piles in front of gyms to protest. I’ll take the middle road.
That’s got to be my approach. I don’t paint by numbers well. I look at what makes sense and incorporate it into my life where it fits, if it don’t, it gets put away till later or maybe forever, but I keep it in reach.
Cheers🙂
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Your more than welcome mate. Chances are on a low dose trt with high shbg and low estro to start with you may never need an ai. Thing is, if you start increasing the trt more to bring down shbg or balance out a free test issue then theres a chance an ai may be needed at some point. But let your lab numbers and YOUR feelings guide you. Its a longish road but once youve got a few sets of labs and start to figure out at what level of estro, shbg, test blahdy blah makes YOU feel good no matter what any expert says then YOU will know if you need an ai or not.
Youll get there in the not too distant future
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That I believe.
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Do you not consider gyno(man boobs) requiring surgery to get rid of a health problem?
Loss of libido and or ED?
Google: What happens if a man has too much estrogen?
The most common symptoms of high estrogen in men include these eight: Sexual dysfunction (low libido, decreased morning erections, decreased erectile function) Enlarged breasts. … Increased abdominal fat (can also be a symptom of low estrogen )Aug 8, 2018
click on pict for larger image.
It’s the same in women. If low estrogen has symptoms, than it stands to reason high estrogen also has symptoms.
In men and premenopausal women, too much estrogen a condition called estrogen dominance causes toxic fat gain, water retention, bloating, and a host of other health and wellness issues. As women age, there is a natural decline in testosterone and progesterone levels, leaving a relative excess of estrogen.
Hey hrdlvn, your addressing the wrong guy
Read all the posts before that. dnok asked highpull a question about why people feared AI’s and highpull (NOT ME) linked the video above. dnok didn’t have the time to review the video. I was curious…which I tend to be if you haven’t yet noticed…so I watched the video highpull sent dnok and gave a summary of what Dr Rouzer said in the video that highpull posted for dnok
So…I don’t have a dog in the fight dude…in fact…I just got prescribed 200mgs of Testosterone Cypionate IM automatically compounded with 1mg Anastrozole in the vial with the Testosterone so I have no choice but to take the shit regardless. Yes, that’s right, every shot I take will have 1mg of Anastrozole and 200mgs of Testosterone Cypionate with no options. That’s 1 10ml vial containing 2000mgs Testosterone and 20mgs of Anastrozole compounded…no choice…my E2 is currently 31pg/mL on 150mgs Testosterone Cypionate BTW.
systemlord…read the post I just sent to hrdlvn.
And watch the damn video. I DIDN’T LINK IT.
Sorry I though you were in limbo deciding if AIs were good and trying to figure out if high E2 was an issue. Again sorry.
I don’t know who suggested to get your T with an AI build in but that is a really bad idea. What will you do if the AI is too much?
No worries man, it’s a raging debate and one I’ve been very curious about in both camps. I’m just curious about what every members take is on it and I check out the stuff they post…that’s all.
Royal Medical insisted that that’s the way they’re doing it brother. It’s a cookie cutter program for $195 a month man…it’s all I could afford. Prior to these last labs my E2 was like 16pg/mL.
What am I going to do? It’s a good question. I dunno yet. It just happened. I suppose I’ll crash my E2 into the ground and get new labs from them. Until then I’ll be pumping myself full of hCG to get E2 up…I’m F****** aren’t I ?
On TRT I have never taken more that 150mg/wk and I only needed .375mg/wk to keep my E2 at 24. I ran this protocol for about a year and did mini blood test every 3 months. High HCT and low ferritin forced me to reduce my dose.
1mg of anastrozole is a shitload so in 3 months when you crash your E2 I don’t want to hear you bashing AI’s just because you took too much. You are paying 195 to feel like shit in about 3 months. I would not do it. You heard it here first I do wish you luck.
When did you hear me bashing AI’s? What are you skipping when reading? I think you got me mixed up with someone else. And…uh…yeah…my E2 will be shot.
Hell no I’m not running 200mgs weekly, that’s what they’re giving me. Their labs are in 13 weeks from now…what should I do? Stop paying for my sons rehab treatment? Send my kid who has severe PTSD, type 2 Bi-Polar and OCD out on to the streets and say “hey sorry son, dad needs to pay for a telemedical service he can’t afford so he’s not losing his mind. Good luck out there”? I ain’t in this for a joy ride brother. I legitimately need this treatment.
If choices other existed…do you think this would by mine?
I am not saying you are bashing AI’s now I am saying you will crash your E2 if you take the T with an AI mixed in and I hope you don’t come on here and start bashing it after that happens. If you take even less T than 200mg/wk the AI will be even worse. It is not linear.
I am sorry to hear about your family medical issues but you taking T with an AI is not going to help your situation. High T and crashed E2 is not better than low T. Find another source. Do you not have a big guy at your gym with acne all over his back?