Varq, I’m going to try to post my reasoning and justification for why I take that stance, after that its for you to decide whether you feel my “logic/stance” is sensible or just “naive.” As for the Japan thread, I stated my reason for my reaction and then maturely stepped out, and have not been back. As much as I would like to contribute I don’t want to have to battle every time I do, so I leave it for you more experienced fellows to share. I’ve moved on/forward, I hope others will too.
That being said, I unfortunately can’t copy paste from online Bibles because my workplace Internet blocks religious sites, so I hope my typing this out by hand while looking at my cell phone counts for something :D. I am referencing the NIV version, even though I personally prefer the Old & New King James - I like the old lingo. Perhaps your book is worded differently. I also understand that much gets lost in translation (as with Japanese) when you hop languages. Some of the original verbage meant more than what it was translated to, for example “knowing” someone meant a whole lot more than meeting them in person. Take it for what it is.
First communication between God and Moses, Exodus 3-4.
4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses, Moses.” And Moses said, “Here I am” 5 "Do not come any closer, " God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6Then He said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God. 7The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of My people in Egypt. I have head them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering.8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey - the home of the Cannanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perrizites, Hivites, and Jebusites. 9And now the cry of the Israelites has reached Me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10So now, go. I am sending you to Pharoah to bring My people the Israelites out of Egypt.”
It continues where God speaks of how he will make this all happen.
First communication between God and Joshua, Joshua 1:1-5
1After the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, the Lord said to Joshua son of Nun, Moses’s aide: 2"Moses My servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give them - to the Israelites. 3I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. 4Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates - all the Hittite country - to the Mediterranean Sea in the West. 5No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.
And then Joshua and the Israelites cross the river, send scouts to Jericho, and so begins that part of the story.
Now. I would debate that the above are good examples of “game plans” of summaries of what will occur. They are God laying out His plan for the Israelites to their soon to be leaders. Similar to say going to a bank to buy a home and the bank loan manager says the following, “Welcome to X Bank, I understand you want to take out a home loan. My name is Steve I’ll be working with you. What I’d like to do today is cover your Credit Report/Score, discuss the current options available to you based on your Credit Score, and then let you know how much you can afford to take out.” At that moment, I can not stand up and say, “I’ve just talked about buying a home, I’m ready to go.” Yes, I covered the broad overview of my coming meeting, but not the details. Just like going to a conference and after the introductory slide of the presentation I get up and leave because I’ve already learned everything the presentation was going to present.
Similarly, its difficult to deduce from God’s word that the immediate answer to what He said was violence. Just as God freed them from the Egyptians without the Israelites raising a single hand in rebellion, how too were they to know that the land becoming theirs would require they kill? Did that inevitable end up being the “solution”, yes, but there was no command of violence from God at the time, only His plan for the Israelites. I would also like to point out the following, based on the above Scripture, and the one below, which is more akin to Headhunters original “troll” post of his dream?
Samuel 15:2-3
God commanded Saul and Israelites, "This is what the Lord Almight says,“I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attach the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”
Typically in the Old Testament (and this was relatively true in the New Testament also), when God spoke to someone for the first time He did the following:
- Introduced Himself
- Provided a Plan for the new leader
- Gave first steps to the plan
Yes this varied in some cases, but overall that was the situation. As HH was obviously not already involved in a strong relationship with God - apparent by his post (assuming serious and not a troll - which it wasn’t serious) why would God ever order such a drastic, significant act of violence, and with no purpose? I realize this is now all a joke, but my understanding is that if you believe to have a better understanding of the Biblical Scripture than me - which you very well might and probably do, then you also know this to be true. I tried to find Scripture of the first time God spoke to David, but again, my ability to search on a blocked work Internet and crappy connection out here in the manufacturing area on my phone has hindered that. I will look into it though for the sake of self-learning and am happy to share if I discover anything. I’m also curious on his initial interactions with Saul - which may have been a violent command, Isaac, etc. I know Jacob was not violent at all, at least in the beginning of his story as he was the victim.
I don’t expect you to 100% come out and say you were wrong or that I’m 100% right. I am merely providing my perspective and my side of the debate, in detail. You may find this ironic and hard to believe, but I was given similar direction as you - that I had great potential to become a priest, pastor, or youth minister/leader. I don’t feel myself worthy of such responsibility however and I understand that leadership suffers the most temptation - because if a leader falls, so often will the followers, if not off the horse then into chaos. That all was quite a long time ago. So see, in some other universe or alternate reality, we could actually/possibly get along quite well as we seem to have similar interests based on both your posts I’ve seen and your avatar :D. Not that we aren’t being civil with one another, but I highly doubt you’ll be sending me a Happy Birthday card any time soon ;).
Hope you enjoy. It was fun to research and write-up over my lunch break.