T Nation

I'm challenging the establishment

Well, not really challenging, but there is something that has always bugged me regarding anti-e’s. Here goes:

As I understand it, Arimidex reduces and/or stops aromitization of test into est. Clomid and nolva, on the other hand, block estrogen at the receptor. Clomid can also stimulate a release of LH, which will cause a release of test, thereby bringing endo. test back up after a cycle.

So people recommend using adex during the cycle to reduce total estrogen, and clomid after to support recovery.

Here comes the question:

Why can’t you use clomid throughout? People always say something along the lines of ‘you’ll be trying to stimulate test production while you suppressing it, so it’ll be a waste.’ I just don’t understand this logic. I’m not saying it’s wrong, just that it dosn’t make sense to me. To me, if the clomid stimulates a release of LH, then those nuts are gonna make test, no matter how much is coming in exogenously.

By my logic, you’ll never get shut down in the first place. Then you just run the clomid until circulating adrogens come down to baseline, and you stop the clomid. Am I misunderstanding the mechanism of clomid?

Anyone’s help is much appreciated.

a lot of guys recommend clomid throughout. others say its worthless.

they usually recommend a-dex because it stops the production of e in its tracks rather than just not allowing it to bind.

now people are saying nolva is superior post cycle.

where is bill roberts when you need him?

You have been talking to Rainbow have’nt you. Tell him to get his ass back here.

I’ve always been a proponent of using clomid throughout cycle. I don’t always do it, but it doesn’t hurt and its possible that it helps to keep your blood levels in check by mimicking as well as being a fail safe against estrogen. This isn’t from my edjunacated guessing. This is the way I’ve read it from guys like bill and in particular sponge. Although I might add that I believe i’ve read posts from Bill stating that if arimadex is used it isn’t necessary to use clomid. But we know that already.

Ru I have a feeling your buddy has been around now for awhile.

Agreed…

I am seeing ALOT of people choosing nolva over clomid now for PCT…

I don’t get it, I mean I have an understanding of what each drug does and all…but I thought the choice was always clomid(and hcg if needed) for PCT?

Maybe its just because people found arimidex was so effective as their sole aromatase inhibitor that using anything else concurrently was a waste of money. But just to rely on clomid/nolvadex could leave some room for aromatisation related probs.

Bill Roberts opinion is that it would be impossible to maintain LH production while on high doses of androgens even while taking loads of clomid.

My first 8 week cycle (test/deca only) I used Clomid only throughout because I was ignorant. I have done two cycles since then (incorporating Ten ED and EQ) using Arimidex during and then clomid post cycle.

I can say I had no issues with using the clomid during the first cycle, and I recovered natural producting quite well.

pdog is correct. i prefer adex since it simply reduces the estrogen present while “on” rather then letting the conversion take place then trying to manage it at the receptor. nobody is saying you cant use clomid throughout but adex is a superior product. not to mention nothing stops gyno in its tracks like nolva. basically, eveything brings a little something different to the table. thats why a balance of all is usually what works best. i used adex to combat estro, nolva to combat gyno symptoms, and clomid for recovery on my cycle just passed.

Thanks for bringing up this question, Ryan. I have been pondering the same issue for some time but havent researched it thoroughly. I’ll be looking for some updates here so you meatheads throw in your three cents…none of this half assed two cents BS.

And, uh, Ryan, do you ever ask your ladies to “hold the mayo”. If you don’t, then you should. You’ll have to work on the delivery, but the women will love it. (colon parenthecy)

Ryan,

Forgot to add that you should check out the “Nova vs Clomid post” thread currently going on. Its got some good stuff.

Thanks for all the quick responses!!!

Thumper, thanks for directing me to that thread- definitely helpful! I perked right up when I read Drago’s comment when he said: ‘clomid doesnt stimulate the hpta allowing for LH secretion. rather it again occupies the estrogen receptor at the hypothalimus thus preventing suppression and allowing normal LH recovery.’

I guess I was on to something when I asked if I was misunderstanding the mechanism of clomid; I really should have been asking a different question, like how does it work?

So now as I understand it, clomid’s action is by blocking estrogen at the receptor on the hypothalymus, yes? And it won’t in fact cause an increase in LH because your androgen levels are still too high, yes? And depending on who you believe, Nolva may be better than clomid anyway, yes?

So what about tribulus, Eurycoma(sp.?), Maca, horny goat weed, and all the other test-friendly herbs? Is there any evidence that they could effectively be used to keep the hpta up and running during a cycle?

Thanks in advance for any opinions/experience.

Oh, and thumper: Yeah, hold the Mayo, a little Mayo on those buns, it’s all been done. Strangely, they don’t like it, unless they’re drunk, and I can’t stand drunk girls. Annoys the shit outta me.

Just out of curiosity, how did your screen name come about?

Ru I have a feeling your buddy has been around now for awhile

you know something I don’t Spook? Or you just guessing.

My understanding…

Primarily, yes.

You do want an increase in LH to boost T production. Are you saying that since your body will already be pumping it out during your cycle that clomid will not contribute to the production of EVEN MORE T? This I don’t know. I certainly don’t believe that it could reduce it though. As Llewellyn stated in that thread, the conventional belief is that clomid is best for increasing LH production, his belief is the contrary and references and article (that would be interesting to get my hands on) stating that a smaller doseage of Nolva is hands down better than clomid in performance and price. I have no knowledge of the history, but some do not follow Llewellyn’s logic.

During a cycle, I dont think you would need them. It would be like throwing a match into a volcano. Post-cycle, I certainly think tribulus-t would be beneficial. I’m still waiting to see a reference to M being used as an anti-e for a gear head.

You not accepting PMs Ryan?

ryan mayo, i suggest you go over to meso-rx.com and read the drug profiles. and as far as the herbs go, no i doubt they will stimulate during the cycle but can be very helpful post.

i hope spook is right but i have seen no evidence of him. is he posting under a different name? if so, why wouldnt he tell some of the old guys in a pm or something?

my point exactly drago. That does not like like sound like the Rainbow I knew at all. I heard from him really quickly and then he disappeared again. So if he was out there I think he would have gotten in touch.

I just changed my profile; now accepting PM’s.

Thanks again for the responses.