Illegal Immigration a Huge Problem

Zap_Branigan · August 24, 2005, 9:18pm

Shit, no one wants to disagree with me? What fun is that?

Honestly as long as Mexico’s economy sucks and ours is strong people will be coming over.

We need to face the facts it will not stop and change the laws.

I favor a guest worker program, but it has to be for a limited term. Set up programs that will assist them in sending money back to their families in Mexico.

We have to be careful we do not set up permanent 2nd class citizens as it appears Germany has done.

If we make it easy for business to hire registered guest workers and punish them for hiring illegals it will work out.

Zap_Branigan · August 24, 2005, 9:24pm

[quote]hspder wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Building a wall at the border won’t work.

We need a realistic guest worker program.

We also need to crack down on the employers that hire illegal aliens.

Hiring illegal aliens to pick strawberries may be cheap but it looks like a false savings to our economy.

Holy crap, I completly agree with you =O

I was amazed too. But, in fact, I don’t think anyone but the illegal immigrants disagree that we need to do something about them.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: until we start doing something really serious to this people – which should include shipping them out for a long time to a prison as far away from the Southern border as possible – think North Dakota – they’ll keep coming in. It has to stop, dammit.

How about an agreement with Russia to ship them off to Siberia as slave labor? It worked for Stalin as a deterrent, I’m sure it will for us.

And, by the way, although I speak fluent Spanish, I’m also all for doing what they do in Europe – making English fluency a requirement for obtaining any legal document, from a visa / work permit to a driver’s license. I have no problem with people speaking their native language between themselves, and teaching Spanish at schools – but anyone coming to this country must learn English if they want to live here. Unless you’re blind, if you’re an adult and can’t read, understand and recite the Declaration of Independence in its original form, you shouldn’t be here, period. It would be like playing football without even knowing the objective of the game.

[/quote]

Holy shit. You take a much more “conservative” attitude than I do on this issue. I didn’t think you had it in you.

Of course, you are closer to the problem than I am, so I can understand why you favor more drastic measures.

Although you are probably a little tounge in cheek with your lock 'em up statements.

Zap_Branigan · August 24, 2005, 9:27pm

[quote]Five wrote:
…

I do agree that we must pass stricter legislation against hiring illegals to perform cheap work, but I do not think that WE are the answer to Mexico’s economic problems. [/quote]

Our neighbors problems are our problems.

We are not solely responsible for fixing them, but whether we like it or not we are stuck with a burden.

Elkhntr1 · August 24, 2005, 9:34pm

Oh, reddog, you are a T-Man in fact you are the greatest T-Man that ever lived! Someday, I will be a great T-Man or better yet He-Man like you.

Smooches,

Elk, not yet a T-Man

reddog6376 · August 24, 2005, 9:36pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Shit, no one wants to disagree with me? What fun is that?

Honestly as long as Mexico’s economy sucks and ours is strong people will be coming over.

We need to face the facts it will not stop and change the laws.

I favor a guest worker program, but it has to be for a limited term. Set up programs that will assist them in sending money back to their families in Mexico.

We have to be careful we do not set up permanent 2nd class citizens as it appears Germany has done.

If we make it easy for business to hire registered guest workers and punish them for hiring illegals it will work out.[/quote]

Zap Branigan for Immigration Czar

hspder · August 24, 2005, 11:34pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Holy shit. You take a much more “conservative” attitude than I do on this issue. I didn’t think you had it in you.

Of course, you are closer to the problem than I am, so I can understand why you favor more drastic measures.[/quote]

Oooooh yeah. This problem hits pretty close to home… I have to deal with it every single day, and it’s becoming harder and harder.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Although you are probably a little tounge in cheek with your lock 'em up statements.[/quote]

I think we need to distinguish two dramatically different kinds of illegal immigrants – the ones that come to the US to become career criminals and the ones that come to the US to work in farms, Wal-mart and generally serve as cheap labor. I have no doubt in my mind – and I’m not trying to be funny with this – that the former kind should be locked up as far away as possible – preferably in Siberia – so that they a) are not able to control their “troops” from prison and b) we send a clear message that we stopped welcoming mobsters into this country a long time ago.

For me, organized crime is and has been one of the top problems of this country for a long time. Somehow it fell off the public radar for some time, but it needs to be back in the radar. Soon.

bigflamer · August 25, 2005, 12:29am

Just a few examples of what could be avoided if our national borders and immigration laws in general were enforced.

Crime victims of illegal aliens

? The murder of Kris Eggle (see the separate page of collected articles), a park ranger in the Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument in southern Arizona on August 9, 2002, was little noted by the media, although the press has paid considerable attention to the deaths of illegal aliens on the border. By contrast, Ranger Eggle was shot down by Mexican drug dealers who were using Organ Pipe as a route for their smuggling. Only 28 when he was murdered, Eggle was a valedictorian and an Eagle Scout who joined the National Park Service because he loved the outdoors. (Organ Pipe is considered to be the most dangerous of the national park system: 200,000 illegal aliens and 700,000 pounds of drugs were intercepted at the park in 2001.) The Eggle family is determined that his death will not be forgotten by working for real border control, including a Washington press conference with Tom Tancredo in the fall of 2002. The Eggles have a family website, www.kriseggle.org, to inform interested parties about what they are doing.

? In a particularly tragic example of government inattention to illegal aliens who have run amock, one of the snipers who terrorized the Washington DC area for three weeks in October 2002 was a foreign national who had been apprehended the previous year. As a stowaway, he was required by law to be immediately deported back to his home country. Instead, the INS overroad the Border Patrol’s designation and released John Lee Malvo upon the unsuspecting American public. Had immigration law been followed by the INS, there would have been no two-man hit team and it is likely that there would have been no devastating series of murders. As columnist Michelle Malkin has observed, the INS releases dangerous alien criminals all the time.

bigflamer · August 25, 2005, 12:59am

Even the FBI is aying that terrorist could be infiltrating the us through our southern border.

FBI Warns of ‘Special Interest’ Aliens
NewsMax.com Wires
Wednesday, March 9, 2005
WASHINGTON - FBI Director Robert Mueller told Congress on Tuesday that people from countries with ties to al-Qaida have crossed into the United States from Mexico, using false identities.

“We are concerned, Homeland Security is concerned about special interest aliens entering the United States,” Mueller said, using a term for people from countries where al-Qaida is known to be active.

Under persistent questioning from Rep. John Culberson, R-Texas, Mueller said he was aware of one route that takes people to Brazil, where they assume false identities, and then to Mexico before crossing the U.S. border.
He also said that in some instances people with Middle Eastern names have adopted Hispanic last names before trying to get into the United States.

Mueller provided no estimate of the number of people who have entered the country in this manner.

Bush administration officials have previously said al-Qaida could try to infiltrate the United States through the Mexican border.

In recent congressional testimony, Adm. James Loy, deputy Homeland Security secretary, said al-Qaida operatives believe they can pay to get into the country through Mexico and that entering illegally is “more advantageous than legal entry.”

But Loy said there’s no conclusive evidence that al-Qaida operatives have entered the country via Mexico.

Likewise, Mueller did not acknowledge that terrorists had entered the country through Mexico, only that it’s believed people from countries where al-Qaida is active have done so.

U.S. authorities are investigating groups that may be smuggling people from countries with al-Qaida ties, he said.

On another topic, Mueller said it will take until 2008 and cost an unknown amount of money to replace a flawed computer system that was supposed to greatly improve management of terrorism and other criminal cases.

The Virtual Case File project was to have been the final piece of the FBI’s overhaul of its antiquated computer system, an instantaneous and paperless way for FBI agents and analysts to manage all types of investigations.

Undertaking a New Project

Instead, faced with mounting evidence that the system is inadequate and outdated, the FBI is undertaking a new project.

“We intend to develop and implement a state-of-the-art case management system,” Mueller said.

The new system, as yet unnamed, will be deployed in four phases, Mueller said. An estimate of the additional cost should be ready by the end of March, when planners should know what aspects of the system will have to be developed from scratch and what software can be purchased off the shelf, he said.

“Ultimately, it will be better than VCF,” Mueller said.

But skeptical lawmakers, who heard similar predictions before, were not reassured.

“Can you tell us how you guarantee there won’t be a third failure?” asked Rep. Frank Wolf, R-Va., the subcommittee chairman, alluding to problems with the Virtual Case File and an earlier FBI computer system.

The FBI director said the new project would be better managed and put into place in distinct pieces.

After the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Mueller made improvement of the agency’s computer systems a priority. Members of Congress and the independent Sept. 11 commission said the overhaul was critical to enabling the FBI and intelligence agencies to “connect the dots” in preventing attacks.

The first two phases of the “Trilogy” project - deployment of a high-speed, secure FBI computer network and 30,000 new desktop computers - have been completed.

But the upgrade already is 2 1/2 years behind schedule and, at nearly $600 million, more than 25 percent over its initial budget.

Mueller has said he expects the loss to taxpayers from the Virtual Case File to be $105 million.

Before the overhaul, begun in November 2000, many of the FBI’s computer systems were 30-year-old hand-me-downs from other government agencies. Few of the bureau’s 56 field offices had connections to the Internet and its networks couldn’t even transmit a digital photo.

hspder · August 25, 2005, 2:37am

[quote]croak wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
We need a realistic guest worker program.
…

I think this is key. It needs to be more tempting than crossing the border as well. This could be a tax break on a certain percentage of their income with the intent of it being sent to families or any other series of options that allow the US to monitor non-citizens but allows for foreigners to have a chance.

This won’t deter all of the illegal immigration, but it may limit it[/quote]

Well, first of all I’d like to say that I do understand where you and Zap are coming from, and I do agree that part of the solution of the problem is to make legal immigration a little less complicated, slow and expensive.

However, in regards to the tax breaks and sending money home, as an economist (for those who don’t know me already, I’m an Economy professor at the GSB at Stanford), I have had a long hard look at those, and it’s actually a very bad idea.

I’ve also mentioned before I lived in Amsterdam for a few years. One of the reasons I was there was for one of the projects the Dutch government consulted me on (European governments regularly hire foreign professors from well-known Universities as consultants).

Holland has a law that allows 30% of your gross income to be tax free if you’re a qualified foreign worker, in your first 10 years there. They call those 30% “Extra-territorial Expenses” and they’re completely free of taxation – you can do whatever you want with them, which usually ends up being sending it back to your home country.

Now this works out well for European Union citizens, because, most like the US, each state in the EU does a lot of commerce with other states, most countries have the same currency (the Euro) and money moves around a lot. Basically if I was, say, a Portuguese citizen working in Holland and I sent 30% of my Euros back home, that money would probably find its way back to Holland, or Germany, or one of the other countries from which Portugal buys a LOT of stuff from.

Now, with, say, the large Turkish or Moroccan communities there, it didn’t work that well. The money just disappeared into those countries and usually ends up being used to either pay for plane tickets for their whole family to come in too, or to buy properties there and inflate the house prices in an already poor country. So it ends up in the greedy paws of some airline or real estate mogul and not only never comes back to Holland, it doesn’t improve the economic state of the poor country.

Because of the close proximity, and for the Holland study, I also went to Germany and checked the patterns there with the massive Turkish immigrant community. Even after 40 years of sending money back to Turkey, it didn’t really improve things there. Turkey has improved on its own, thanks to a very successful tourism industry, and dramatic improvements to their manufacturing industry. What sending money abroad did was make it harder for them to improve – created a feedback loop to increase the Turkish community in Germany exponentially and increased house prices in Turkey at rates rivaling the ones in developed countries – basically what I expected.

In fact, several models show that the thing that works at improving everybody’s economic situation is to try to avoid the money from getting out of the country at all cost, by having big taxes on sending money outside the EU and tax breaks on keeping it in, through IRA and 401k-like programs, plus low-interest mortgages specifically for foreign citizens – along with a strong integration program of those citizens into the local society, through compulsory language training, and cultural education.

By keeping the money in, and assimilating them, the foreign workers become part of the economic system, and add value to it, rather than taking from it. That is not only effective at keeping the money inside the country?s economy, it’s effective at keeping out people that just want to come in to earn a quick buck.

How does that help the “poor” country? By leaving them without a country to flee to, but giving them a “carrot” to aspire to (which, in the case of Turkey, is joining the EU) they try to fix things at home. Both Turkey and Morocco are slowly doing better, and becoming less reliant on money coming from abroad. They have no other choice, and they have a lot to gain – if they get their act together on their own, eventually Turkey will be able to join the EU, which is their Holy Grail, and Morocco will eventually be able to get their goods into the EU with lower or no duty taxes.

That’s basically the summary of my 200-something pages report and, in fact, Holland has been tightening up the 30% program and increasing the cultural education stuff as a result of the recommendations they got from me and my peers around the world that basically said very similar things. And it’s working – I have been receiving very good feedback that it is producing the desired results.

Now, I do understand Mexico has some subtle differences; however I do believe at this point we need to send them a clear message that this is not going in the right direction. Basically we should have made the carrots (like the FTA, or investment by US companies) dependant on certain policy changes from the Mexican Government. George W. has been waaaaaay too kind to them. If they want our help, they need to first show they’re responsible. It?s never too late to take those benefits back until they get their act together.

lothario1132 · August 25, 2005, 2:47am

What would happen if we just, say… BOUGHT Mexico like we did with Louisiana, to make it part of the US? Boom, all you Mexican illegals just became American citizens. No more endless supply of Welfare, you have to get a job and get tracked as a taxpayer like the rest of us. Let’s make the Mexican national flag a state flag. There’s one hundred million and change citizens of Mexico who should be celebrating the 4th of July like the rest of us. Lord knows I usually tie one on when Cinco de Mayo rolls around.

No, I’m really only joking around, but think about it for a second. What if?

Pretzel_Logic · August 25, 2005, 4:48am

Legal immigration is a problem too. There are too many mexicans coming here period. Lets deal with illegals though.
It is not immposible to do anything. The INS(or whatever it’s called now) is worthless in almost every way. The border patrol and Immigration and Customs officers can’t enforce the law. There aren’t enough resources. Clamping down on the border could be done by our government. The government could also make it mandatory that public stuff be in English only. Stiff penalties for hiring illegals from Mexico and South America would help. Yes I am singling them out, but there have been different rules when it comes to different countries immigration-wise since forever so deal with it. I think it should be harder to immigrate from Mexico and South America, easier to be a guest worker in jobs that our economy has a proven and immediate need for, and damn near immpossible to come here illegally. The guest workers would obviously be taxed but not recieve any government benifits, now or in the future. Would help with our public services and looming SS problems. Also sending money to your family south of the border would be discouraged by all means. We owe Mexico nothing and we owe Mexicans nothing. They do not deserve the American Southwest, our money or jobs here. Fuck Vicente Fox and his corrupt government. Why Bush would appease them is beyond me. The gain does not outweight the loss, even for rich, selfish fucks.
BJJER, wetbacks(the relatives you are trying to make excuses for) are moving to construction. California farmers are having trouble getting crops picked because it is a little tougher to come in illegally and the ones who do get in or were already here don’t want to pick fruit all day in the sun for minimum wage. The farmers built their farms on illegal labor, and paying far below what the job should be payed. That’s why they are having problems. They never planned on paying real wages and now can’t deal with it. Cheap illegal labor has only created a problem in the long run.
Hey Elk, the difference between us and the feathers is that we can fight back. If the government won’t do anything why can’t ordinary citizens. White Americans are still in the majority. They carry the burden of this country and of it’s immigration problem and have the most to lose. They could take it back. I say whites, because blacks are pretty worthless on the immigration issue and hispanics are indifferent, ignorant, or pro-immigration. Stand up for something. This is an important fucking issue and unless the people make it uncomfortable for politicians to look the other way and make it uncomfortable for illegals to come here and be here nothing will change.

slimjim · August 25, 2005, 5:40am

[quote]Pretzel Logic wrote:
BJJER, wetbacks(the relatives you are trying to make excuses for) are moving to construction. California farmers are having trouble getting crops picked because it is a little tougher to come in illegally and the ones who do get in or were already here don’t want to pick fruit all day in the sun for minimum wage. The farmers built their farms on illegal labor, and paying far below what the job should be payed. That’s why they are having problems. They never planned on paying real wages and now can’t deal with it. Cheap illegal labor has only created a problem in the long run.
Hey Elk, the difference between us and the feathers is that we can fight back. If the government won’t do anything why can’t ordinary citizens. White Americans are still in the majority. They carry the burden of this country and of it’s immigration problem and have the most to lose. They could take it back. I say whites, because blacks are pretty worthless on the immigration issue and hispanics are indifferent, ignorant, or pro-immigration. Stand up for something. This is an important fucking issue and unless the people make it uncomfortable for politicians to look the other way and make it uncomfortable for illegals to come here and be here nothing will change. [/quote]

Good idea, we should organize ourselves, and get some uniforms…white robes, with little white pointy hats would probably do the trick. Then we could hold meetings where we light torches and ride around on horseback, followed by a lynching or two. I’m just not sure what kind of name we’d give a group like this, you seem fairly versed in this so why don’t you help me out.

I mean really, did you really use the term wetbacks? Maybe if Americans started busting their ass to make themselves indespinsible to the companies they work for, jobs in the technology industry wouldn’t get farmed out to India, where they can do it cheaper and better. I have no sympathy for people crying about their job going to someone else. Fuck that. It surprises me that people from the right would take this stance. A lot of you talk about not wanting to pay for other’s health care, welfare, and so on a so forth, because they should take care of themselves. Well I believe that your job security is directly linked to how well you do your job and the wages you are willing to work for, so they[people] should take care of themselves when it comes to employment.

Rockscar · August 25, 2005, 2:09pm

Can’t they still get a valid drivers license even though they are illegal?

Elkhntr1 · August 25, 2005, 2:34pm

[quote]Pretzel Logic wrote:
Legal immigration is a problem too. There are too many mexicans coming here period. Lets deal with illegals though.
It is not immposible to do anything. The INS(or whatever it’s called now) is worthless in almost every way. The border patrol and Immigration and Customs officers can’t enforce the law. There aren’t enough resources. Clamping down on the border could be done by our government. The government could also make it mandatory that public stuff be in English only. Stiff penalties for hiring illegals from Mexico and South America would help. Yes I am singling them out, but there have been different rules when it comes to different countries immigration-wise since forever so deal with it. I think it should be harder to immigrate from Mexico and South America, easier to be a guest worker in jobs that our economy has a proven and immediate need for, and damn near immpossible to come here illegally. The guest workers would obviously be taxed but not recieve any government benifits, now or in the future. Would help with our public services and looming SS problems. Also sending money to your family south of the border would be discouraged by all means. We owe Mexico nothing and we owe Mexicans nothing. They do not deserve the American Southwest, our money or jobs here. Fuck Vicente Fox and his corrupt government. Why Bush would appease them is beyond me. The gain does not outweight the loss, even for rich, selfish fucks.
BJJER, wetbacks(the relatives you are trying to make excuses for) are moving to construction. California farmers are having trouble getting crops picked because it is a little tougher to come in illegally and the ones who do get in or were already here don’t want to pick fruit all day in the sun for minimum wage. The farmers built their farms on illegal labor, and paying far below what the job should be payed. That’s why they are having problems. They never planned on paying real wages and now can’t deal with it. Cheap illegal labor has only created a problem in the long run.
Hey Elk, the difference between us and the feathers is that we can fight back. If the government won’t do anything why can’t ordinary citizens. White Americans are still in the majority. They carry the burden of this country and of it’s immigration problem and have the most to lose. They could take it back. I say whites, because blacks are pretty worthless on the immigration issue and hispanics are indifferent, ignorant, or pro-immigration. Stand up for something. This is an important fucking issue and unless the people make it uncomfortable for politicians to look the other way and make it uncomfortable for illegals to come here and be here nothing will change. [/quote]

Your post is very revealing. I hope we never meet!

reddog6376 · August 25, 2005, 2:42pm

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Can’t they still get a valid drivers license even though they are illegal?[/quote]

That varies from state to state, but I belive there are about 2 dozen states that do give them drivers licences, with which it is possible for them to register to vote…

BJJER · August 25, 2005, 3:15pm

Slim JIm, you are a model citizen and your acceptance for others shine through like the sun. This is what every fortune cookie you open must say about you. But wait a minute you probably don’t eat Chinese food for the fear of being seen at a damm chink restaurant.

So if my family can’t pick the fruit or as you say won’t pick the fruit, then is your family going to do it. I hardly doubt you have thought this through. If illegals work for $5.00 an hour or sometimes even less, what would it take for you to work in the field, probably 50 bucks or so, and still you would quit after about an hour of work bitching about how hot it is.

BJJER · August 25, 2005, 3:16pm

Sorry Slim Jim that was meant for Pretzlogic

Zap_Branigan · August 25, 2005, 3:27pm

[quote]hspder wrote:
croak wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
We need a realistic guest worker program.
…

I think this is key. It needs to be more tempting than crossing the border as well. This could be a tax break on a certain percentage of their income with the intent of it being sent to families or any other series of options that allow the US to monitor non-citizens but allows for foreigners to have a chance.

This won’t deter all of the illegal immigration, but it may limit it