IIFYMacros v Micros

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:

[quote]AsaAkira13 wrote:

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:

[quote]AsaAkira13 wrote:

This is allw ell and good, but ity is pure conjecture, you have provided no scientific data to prove this theory of real food being bettert than supplementing to hit micronutrients.

I am not attacking clean eating. I am not looking for arguements, I was merely hoping proponents of clean eating could provide me some peer reviewed studes, concrete data or anything that overwhelmingly states in clear fact that vitamin and fiber supplements are less effective than eating lots of fruit and or vegetables.

Anything without evidence is not an answer I am looking for.

I myself can find no evidence that clearly proves vitamins from food is superior, more absorbance or gives you any other noticeable benefits.

If you eat a high fat snack with your vitamins the absorption rate is optimal and not an issue.

Anyone who can prove micro nutrients from food are better than those from supplements, please post some evidence.

By the way guys, thanks for the answers, I appreciate the interest but I am only after scientific data, not personal anecdotes.

[/quote]
Did you see the study I posted about Rye Bread vs Wheat Bread?[/quote]

Yes but it was irrelevant, If I supplement with vitamins and mineral and fiber, I don’t need them from my wheat or rye bread.[/quote]
My posts were not irrelevant. What multi has k2 in it? I’m trying to point out that the result of your hypothetical (“what would happen if someone consumed all their carbs from say white bread, candy and pop, got their fat from butter and protein from say a whey protein … supplemented with around 30g fiber powder a day, took mutli vitamins, fish oil and b12”) is far removed from optimal, and would result in dysfunction if followed for any length of time.

First and most clearly B12 is in practically every multi-vitamin i’ve ever come across. Secondly fish oil is not the only essential fatty acid not found in butter. Further, most multis are garbage with synthetic vitamins, and further they lack phytonutrient synergisms in whole foods, which is also a downside of your hypotheical. Also, you said “fiber.” I posted a study showing significant differences in post prandial blood sugar levels from bread with otherwise exactly the same macros and fiber content.

How are these things irrelevant? You’re being stubborn. My point is that this is much more complex than you could possibly imagine. Should I amend my previous post to simply state “this is much more complex than you could possibly imagine” and leave the science out?[/quote]

I was not trying to be rude dude, but what you have linked and have just said are really not scientifically quantified by yourself or those links.

Also if you are willing to pay you can get multivitamins that have everything in them, are tested by independent third party labs and are checked by independent labs for impurities.

As for the whole phytonutrient synergisms, you have not provided any studies showing this to be as important as you claim, this is the thing I am getting at, All I am after is a scientific study showing supplements for micronutrioents is less effective than those taken in from natural foods.

By the way, are you Marc lobliner?


Also

[quote]AsaAkira13 wrote:

I was not trying to be rude dude, but what you have linked and have just said are really not scientifically quantified by yourself or those links.

Also if you are willing to pay you can get multivitamins that have everything in them, are tested by independent third party labs and are checked by independent labs for impurities.

As for the whole phytonutrient synergisms, you have not provided any studies showing this to be as important as you claim, this is the thing I am getting at, All I am after is a scientific study showing supplements for micronutrioents is less effective than those taken in from natural foods.

By the way, are you Marc lobliner?[/quote]

How’d you guess that I’m Marc Lobliner?? Seriously? No, i’m really not.

I do understand the basis of your question, but you must realize that the human diet contains several thousand phytochemicals, many of which have significant bioactivities

About the nutrient synergism thing, some experts believe that much of the credit previously given to vitamin C for it’s ability to prevent disease has more due to the synergism with the phytochemicals that the plants contain in addition to the vitamin c. Almost every single plant that has vitamin c also has various bioflavinoids as well.

There isn’t a study I’m aware of that attempts to replicate what you proposed, so that evidence I cannot share. What I will share is a bit genereal, but the quote sums up my point. I could post more about specific individual synergisms amongst various vitamins (usually C&E are studied) and phytochemicals in food, but I’ll leave you with this:

“The evidence suggests that antioxidants or bioactive compounds are best acquired through whole-food consumption, not from expensive dietary supplements. We believe that a recommendation that consumers eat 5 to 10 servings of a wide variety of fruits and vegetables daily is an appropriate strategy for significantly reducing the risk of chronic diseases and to meet their nutrient requirements for optimum health.” http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/12/3479S.short

To buy a supplement with quality vitamins and minerals AS WELL AS dozens or more phytochemicals in appreciable amounts would be more expensive (probably), less delicious (IMO), and much more complicated for sure. Getting good nutrition through quality food is difficult enough as it is.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/517S.short

You’ve heard of C3G, right? They sell it here. Read the literature they have about it. C3G is basically a refined version of the anthocyanins found in berries (blueberrries, blackberries, billberries, cranberries, black rice, and several other sources) as well, but most commonly berries). Can you take a supplement if you can’t or don’t want to eat berries? Absolutely. Vitamin C alone won’t get you the same effects as the whole food version. Although Vitamin C with bioflavinoids is actually not that expensive nor difficult to obtain.

okay a couple more synergism studies:
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/15230860050192279
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/6/1459.short

I’m sure there are more, and probably better examples out there as well.

There is still issue with getting all protein from one source, but that’s another story.

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:

[quote]AsaAkira13 wrote:

I was not trying to be rude dude, but what you have linked and have just said are really not scientifically quantified by yourself or those links.

Also if you are willing to pay you can get multivitamins that have everything in them, are tested by independent third party labs and are checked by independent labs for impurities.

As for the whole phytonutrient synergisms, you have not provided any studies showing this to be as important as you claim, this is the thing I am getting at, All I am after is a scientific study showing supplements for micronutrioents is less effective than those taken in from natural foods.

By the way, are you Marc lobliner?[/quote]

How’d you guess that I’m Marc Lobliner?? Seriously? No, i’m really not.

I do understand the basis of your question, but you must realize that the human diet contains several thousand phytochemicals, many of which have significant bioactivities

About the nutrient synergism thing, some experts believe that much of the credit previously given to vitamin C for it’s ability to prevent disease has more due to the synergism with the phytochemicals that the plants contain in addition to the vitamin c. Almost every single plant that has vitamin c also has various bioflavinoids as well.

There isn’t a study I’m aware of that attempts to replicate what you proposed, so that evidence I cannot share. What I will share is a bit genereal, but the quote sums up my point. I could post more about specific individual synergisms amongst various vitamins (usually C&E are studied) and phytochemicals in food, but I’ll leave you with this:

“The evidence suggests that antioxidants or bioactive compounds are best acquired through whole-food consumption, not from expensive dietary supplements. We believe that a recommendation that consumers eat 5 to 10 servings of a wide variety of fruits and vegetables daily is an appropriate strategy for significantly reducing the risk of chronic diseases and to meet their nutrient requirements for optimum health.” http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/12/3479S.short

To buy a supplement with quality vitamins and minerals AS WELL AS dozens or more phytochemicals in appreciable amounts would be more expensive (probably), less delicious (IMO), and much more complicated for sure. Getting good nutrition through quality food is difficult enough as it is.

You’ve heard of C3G, right? They sell it here. Read the literature they have about it. C3G is basically a refined version of the anthocyanins found in berries (blueberrries, blackberries, billberries, cranberries, black rice, and several other sources) as well, but most commonly berries). Can you take a supplement if you can’t or don’t want to eat berries? Absolutely. Vitamin C alone won’t get you the same effects as the whole food version. Although Vitamin C with bioflavinoids is actually not that expensive nor difficult to obtain.

okay a couple more synergism studies:
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/15230860050192279

I’m sure there are more, and probably better examples out there as well.

There is still issue with getting all protein from one source, but that’s another story.[/quote]

Haha tiger fitness ! I just took a guess.

By the way I pretty much only eat fruit and meat because I find it delicious so I don’t really propose eating the way I outlined in the OP because as you stated, it is no where near delicious. However I don’t think there is any evidence whatsoever to suggest you couldn’t feel and perform great by eating snickers and whey protein and adding in all the micro goodies via pill and powder form.

There also is no evidence to prove it would work, however the burden is to disprove it from a scientific POV.

I generally like how I feel when I consume red meat and seafood with as much fresh fruit as I can stomach.

I am pretty much paleo, however I don’t think the evolutionary science behind the paleo community is valid and I feel like paleo and primal advocates are generally selling themselves with no scientific backing for their claims.

Are you paleo/primal?

The kresser link made me think so. If so how do you feel about the anti grain and dairy stuff, I must say I feel better without gluten, but I think it is merely because I can’t eat pizza and lager when I am gluten free.

scurvy? you really have to have a messed up diet to get it
http://www.hektoeninternational.org/documents/sailors_scurvy-final.pdf

if you are wondering about whole food vs supplements, see the Soylent Green experiment. I’m not sure how many people have done that, so it might not count as true science yet if n <10 lol, but it’s an interesting read

if you are wondering about micros vs macros, there isn’t a simple answer. Your body is pretty smart and will do what it can to keep you alive, including synthesizing the substrate more, increasing retention, and/or increasing absorption. Ever had a friend who loved eating chalk? A lot of my friends growing up would eat that like candy. Hell I still have a friend who loves it. It’s really not hard to get “enough” micros to have your health markers in good shape and improve your physique.

In the end your diet should be based on science obviously, but psychology just as well. That’s why IIFYM works so well - you focus on what matters the most physiologically, and not much else. If you have a scientifically “optimal” diet that is really restrictive, you’ll have trouble following it, which clearly leads to stress and falling off the bandwagon.

[quote]AsaAkira13 wrote:

Haha tiger fitness ! I just took a guess.

By the way I pretty much only eat fruit and meat because I find it delicious so I don’t really propose eating the way I outlined in the OP because as you stated, it is no where near delicious. However I don’t think there is any evidence whatsoever to suggest you couldn’t feel and perform great by eating snickers and whey protein and adding in all the micro goodies via pill and powder form.

There also is no evidence to prove it would work, however the burden is to disprove it from a scientific POV.

I generally like how I feel when I consume red meat and seafood with as much fresh fruit as I can stomach.

I am pretty much paleo, however I don’t think the evolutionary science behind the paleo community is valid and I feel like paleo and primal advocates are generally selling themselves with no scientific backing for their claims.

Are you paleo/primal?

The kresser link made me think so. If so how do you feel about the anti grain and dairy stuff, I must say I feel better without gluten, but I think it is merely because I can’t eat pizza and lager when I am gluten free.[/quote]

The Bulletproof Tiger thing is an Eastbound and Down reference.

Agree to disagree on the no science part, but I’ll certainly admit that there is nothing that’s gonna absolutely disprove your premise, and I’ll also admit that the science that I’ve given isn’t solid, but more illustrative, if that makes sense.

Consider this study which concludes “Greater consumption of specific whole fruits, particularly blueberries, grapes, and apples, is significantly associated with a lower risk of type 2 diabetes.” The findings also suggest that juices may even raise the risk. http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f5001 but again the design of the study has limitations. “While fruits are recommended as a measure for diabetes prevention, previous studies have found mixed results for total fruit consumption,” senior author Qi Sun, an assistant professor in the department of nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health, said in a school news release. “Our findings provide novel evidence suggesting that certain fruits may be especially beneficial for lowering diabetes risk.” Emphasis on the certain fruits part. But again, the inherent limitations can’t prove anything either way.

I do believe that there is huge value in passing on tradition in food from one generation to the next, and also that nature and food is important for health, but that is merely for context, so as to whether I feel Paleo rules need to be followed in order to achieve health - not necessarily, though I do think they get a lot right. Though as for grains/beans, historically man has learned many methods for making food easier to digest. I feel that listening to our bodies is key. So if you body says to eat a grilled cheese, and it makes you feel great and chronic consumption isn’t bad for your physique, then have at it!

Personally, I do eat grain free, but because I feel better when I do, not because it’s trendy. I actually have a pretty severe reaction to wheat at times… namely if combined with alcohol. I’ve found that alcohol has an acute effect (and probably chronically as well) which makes leaky gut much worse. Let’s just say that (SADLY!) if I cave and eat a burger and a beer (or even just beer, but not any other form of alcohol by itself) gives fairly intense localized pain and flatulence for more than a week, in addition to some other stuff you don’t want to hear about. Thankfully I finally have it narrowed down to that. Also i’ve personally found that caffeine sadly has a similar effect on my leaky gut :,( Considering the intensity of the reaction with wheat, and that I’ve long had tummy issues (long before I sipped alcohol), I just avoid grains at this point. I feel it’s important for my own health to do so.

I have no problem with milk, or dairy (though ONLY in moderation though if pastuerized). I am a big fan of raw milk. I’m planning to start making homemade yogurt (and or other fermented dairy drink) with raw milk. That’s supposed to be really great.

Fruit’s are all good on my tummy. I don’t eat a lot of it though, but many fruits are functional foods, in that they are more than mere macros. That said, I do recommend that people put a cap on sugar - 50 grams on workout days, but adherence to this is based on personal response to sugar.

Here’s a well-researched article that definitely picks a side in the ‘whole foods vs supplements’ debate: