Phenylalanine
Valine
Tryptophan
Threonine
Isoleucine
Methionine
Histidine
Arginine
Lysine
Leucine
cannot be produced by the body. Other amino acids can. The body simply does not make its own protein.
[quote]zarathus wrote:
I apparently didn’t know, and as soon as you show me, I’ll go replace my chicken and protein powder with butter, vegetable oil, and Cool-Aid.
[/quote]
Wow. That was pretty damn stupid. Ignorance is bliss, huh? Fucking orgasmic, isn’t it?
Now, I didn’t call you stupid, or make ad hominem argument, but that seems like all you know how to do. Please, demonstrate my ignorance and show me how the body makes its own protein.
[quote]zarathus wrote:
Phenylalanine
Valine
Tryptophan
Threonine
Isoleucine
Methionine
Histidine
Arginine
Lysine
Leucine
cannot be produced by the body. Other amino acids can. The body simply does not make its own protein.[/quote]
Do you know that there are essential amino acids and non-essential amino acids? The majority of the protein comprising muscle tissue, which is only an estimated 22% of total volume, is made up of non-essential amino acids.
Along with that, genetics determine the rate of anabolism which is ultimately the definition of body types in relation to lean tissue mass; ectomporphs, endomorphs and mesomorphs.
If muscle gains were completely reliant on protein intake for further growth, how is it many of the greatest physiques ever built before the 1960’s were created without the use of mega-protein supplements? Total caloric intake is the primary factor for muscle growth along with resistance training.
While protein intake is important, it is not more important than total caloric intake and muscle gains based on the initiating stimulus are primarily based on the rate at which proteins are genetically formed for more growth. A mesomorph would naturally have a higher rate of protein anabolism even with the same intake as an ectomorph.
If this was not the case, all one would have to do is adjust their protein intake to match the gains of other trainers. This is simply not the case.
Since this original poster wrote that his friend gains muscle fairly easily, it is a safe bet that he is not an ectomorph in terms of how his body responds to training. Someone like that could make gains even if their protein intake was not at optimal levels but their caloric intake compensated and kept their body from using protein as a major source of energy.
Let me know if there was something you didn’t catch.
[quote]zarathus wrote:
Now, I didn’t call you stupid, or make ad hominem argument, but that seems like all you know how to do. Please, demonstrate my ignorance and show me how the body makes its own protein.[/quote]
I figure you are simply in the dark about how complex the human body is. The above study showed that protein anabolism decreases with age in spite of protein intake. It shows that protein synthesis is an independant function to protein intake. Factors that affect the process are age, overall metabolism, and genetic predisposition associated with body type.
I grant you all of what you just said, and the study indeed looks good. I’ll start with a sentence from the study:
Amino acids alone stimulate muscle protein synthesis in the elderly.
Yes, there are other factors, but the study above did not involve a lack of protein. Rather, it determined, like you said just now, that there are other factors in protein synthesis, which I absoutely agree with. However, earlier, you stated:
The body makes its own protein-which the sentence I just quoted from the study you cited refutes…
and
The amount of calories is the single most determinent factor (which is not supported by the study you posted).
I know that I can not just eat protein, or just eat sugar, or lipids, but that I need a balance of macronutrients. I never denied that we need a balance of macronutrients. You did.
Also, as I think another poster wrote above, this guy’s focus should also be on branched chain amino acids and an attempt to focus mostly on those essential amino acids through his diet. Supplements like “glutamine” should be avoided due to has lack of room for “error” in his overall daily intake.
and by the way, insult my argument, not my intelligence.
[quote]zarathus wrote:
I grant you all of what you just said, and the study indeed looks good. I’ll start with a sentence from the study:
Amino acids alone stimulate muscle protein synthesis in the elderly.
Yes, there are other factors, but the study above did not involve a lack of protein. Rather, it determined, like you said just now, that there are other factors in protein synthesis, which I absoutely agree with. However, earlier, you stated:
The body makes its own protein-which the sentence I just quoted from the study you cited refutes…
and
The amount of calories is the single most determinent factor (which is not supported by the study you posted).
I know that I can not just eat protein, or just eat sugar, or lipids, but that I need a balance of macronutrients. I never denied that we need a balance of macronutrients. You did. [/quote]
Why are you lying? Please show where I wrote that you do not need a balance of macronutrients. I’ll wait.
Also, your body makes protein. Are you honestly arguing this point? How do you think glutamine gets into your muscles if you aren’t eating it? Your body NEEDS essential amino acids…thus the name. Your body MAKES non-essential amino acids all day long, everyday until you die.
If you didn’t know this, why are you acting like you are fighting the information?
[quote]zarathus wrote:
and by the way, insult my argument, not my intelligence.[/quote]
I don’t have to insult your intelligence. You do a great job of that yourself.
You said that the body makes its own protein. I’m not lying.
[quote]zarathus wrote:
You said that the body makes its own protein. I’m not lying.[/quote]
Your body does make its own protein. How old are you?
I’m not resisting anything, you just kept calling me an idiot over and over again. I know that your body maufactures protein from amino acids, some of which it has to absorb from diet, some of which it can make itself.
This is not “your-own” protein. It would be an interesting question as to whether you could make gains on 80 grams of just essential fatty acids, but you didn’t pursue that. You seemed to be pursuing a strategy of
- Claim the body makes its own protein
- Call the person debating me an idiot
(which is both an ad hominem argument and an argument from authority).
I’m not saying you do or do not know anything about nutrition, or protein synthesis. I couldn’t honestly care less about your ego-hungry need to prick wave on a online forum. I was just rebutting your claim.
[quote]zarathus wrote:
I’m not resisting anything, you just kept calling me an idiot over and over again. I know that your body maufactures protein from amino acids, some of which it has to absorb from diet, some of which it can make itself.
This is not “your-own” protein. It would be an interesting question as to whether you could make gains on 80 grams of just essential fatty acids, but you didn’t pursue that. You seemed to be pursuing a strategy of
- Claim the body makes its own protein
- Call the person debating me an idiot
(which is both an ad hominem argument and an argument from authority).
I’m not saying you do or do not know anything about nutrition, or protein synthesis. I couldn’t honestly care less about your ego-hungry need to prick wave on a online forum. I was just rebutting your claim.
[/quote]
You are one whiney little bastard. You were the one whose first comment in this thread was to make a statement as if everything I had written was incorrect. YOU are the one who has not shown this to be the case and now you are whining because your original attack is being given right back to you.
If you wanted a civil discussion, then YOU should have approached it differently at the start.
You argument isn’t even one. You are playing elementary word games while only showing that it was you in the dark from the beginning. Good job.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
zarathus wrote:
I’m not resisting anything, you just kept calling me an idiot over and over again. I know that your body maufactures protein from amino acids, some of which it has to absorb from diet, some of which it can make itself.
This is not “your-own” protein. It would be an interesting question as to whether you could make gains on 80 grams of just essential fatty acids, but you didn’t pursue that. You seemed to be pursuing a strategy of
- Claim the body makes its own protein
- Call the person debating me an idiot
(which is both an ad hominem argument and an argument from authority).
I’m not saying you do or do not know anything about nutrition, or protein synthesis. I couldn’t honestly care less about your ego-hungry need to prick wave on a online forum. I was just rebutting your claim.
You are one whiney little bastard. You were the one whose first comment in this thread was to make a statement as if everything I had written was incorrect. YOU are the one who has not shown this to be the case and now you are whining because your original attack is being given right back to you.
If you wanted a civil discussion, then YOU should have approached it differently at the start.
You argument isn’t even one. You are playing elementary word games while only showing that it was you in the dark from the beginning. Good job. [/quote]
I’m sorry for playing elementary word games such as pointing out that you have to ingest amino acids in order to make protein. As for the civil discussion part, all I said was “I call schenanigans”. If that’s so uncivil, make you should take up knitting doilies, you whiny bitch.
So I apologize for my part in hijacking this thread…you were just wanting to answer a question about your cousin.
I found some interesteing information in this thread…
[quote]zarathus wrote:
So I apologize for my part in hijacking this thread…you were just wanting to answer a question about your cousin.
I found some interesteing information in this thread…
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=603346[/quote]
Well I appreciate it dude, but quite honestly you’re more of a detriment to my cousin’s health than anything. Proffesor X tried to give me some advice and you basically just confused the fuck out of me until he pissed on your maxilla.
You essentially used my thread to sound smart by proving a “smart” (sorry about the " prof) guy wrong. and then tried to play it off as not being your fault by posting something “helpful”. If you wanted to help you would’nt play around in a thread about a serious health issue with “I call schananigans” as a single post.
There was an article about protein cycling before here, and the people who tried it found it didn’t work. 1998 I believe.
http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_protein
Here is an article by Cy Wilson from way back mentioning it, and reasons why it didn’t work.
Back to kidneys, they are nothing to mess with, and anything you can do to keep them healthy, do it. So the gains take longer, so what? Health first, and size second.
[quote]GeorgeMontyIV wrote:
Sounds as if athletics is pretty important to this guy but if it was me, my long-term health would be my biggest concern.
So, get him to get into something like yoga or cycling. Make sure the guy doesnt eat too much protein you really dont need more than 70 grams anyway.
But dont let him be a dumbass like the guy above that said to just eat protein anyway, get him to drink more water if that helps and keep that blood pressure down.
[/quote]
I don’t think you understand the first thing about this guy’s condition. Yes longterm health is one of the things he needs to be concerned with… but yoga or cycling? Please. How is that possibly better than lifting? I know he’s not at this point yet, but studies have shown that people who remain physically active and strong do much better on dialysis and are able to live almost normal lives throughout the process. It’s an exhausting treatment and the stronger his body is the better it will be for him.
70 grams? Where the hell did you get that number from? You’re saying he shouldn’t even worry about eating protein and drink more water? Are you aware that most people with kidney problems have restricted water intake due to fluid retention?
In regards to the protein, are you suggesting he live off of fats and carbs and do moderate cycling exercise and hope he stays healthy?
This article refers to diet once he is on dialysis… but I thought you might find this interesting…
Each time the dialysate is drained out there is a small loss of protein and over the course of the day this adds up to 5-10g.
It is therefore important to compensate for this by recommending a higher protein intake - it has been suggested that patients should consume as much as 1.5g/kg daily but this is very difficult to acheive especially in the elderly.
An intake of 1.1-1.2g/kg ideal body weight is more realistic.
I’m not saying he should up his protein intake, as the doctor has placed strict restrictions on it… I’m just saying your advice is bullshit and you should research a situation more before giving said advice.