T Nation

If War is So Bad...

…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

It’s in our DNA. We are hard-wired for conflict and survival of the fittest. In modern times, it translates to a struggle for land and power. Not that we aren’t capable and don’t achieve plenty of higher-level things as well (music, art, etc…)

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

  1. Because sinners hate sin - but they cannot help themselves from sinning. Much the way alcoholics hate drinking, but keep lifting the glass nevertheless.

  2. Because the world is as it is and we ignore certain realities at our peril.

Both.^

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

  1. Because sinners hate sin - but they cannot help themselves from sinning. Much the way alcoholics hate drinking, but keep lifting the glass nevertheless.

  2. Because the world is as it is and we ignore certain realities at our peril.

Both.^ [/quote]

Regarding #1: practicing alcoholics don’t hate drinking; they hate the horrible consequences that inevitably come with their drinking. If they could drink consequence-free they would. That’s essentially why war occurs despite all the horrific things that come along with it. We don’t necessarily hate war as a whole society, but virtually all those who do “like” war or go to war certainly wish to do so with the least amount of negative consequences for themselves as possible. In short, we don’t hate war as much as we hate losing them.

We’re not infallible as humans and we live in an inherently contradictory manner. There are all sorts of things we do that do not make sense and engaging in warfare despite what war can do to our society is one of them. Naturally both sides, at the outset of war, feel like they can win and that the price of victory is worth the reward that comes with it.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

  1. Because sinners hate sin - but they cannot help themselves from sinning. Much the way alcoholics hate drinking, but keep lifting the glass nevertheless.

  2. Because the world is as it is and we ignore certain realities at our peril.

Both.^ [/quote]

Regarding #1: practicing alcoholics don’t hate drinking; they hate the horrible consequences that inevitably come with their drinking. If they could drink consequence-free they would. That’s essentially why war occurs despite all the horrific things that come along with it. We don’t necessarily hate war as a whole society, but virtually all those who do “like” war or go to war certainly wish to do so with the least amount of negative consequences for themselves as possible. In short, we don’t hate war as much as we hate losing them.

We’re not infallible as humans and we live in an inherently contradictory manner. There are all sorts of things we do that do not make sense and engaging in warfare despite what war can do to our society is one of them. Naturally both sides, at the outset of war, feel like they can win and that the price of victory is worth the reward that comes with it. [/quote]

I’ve never met an alcoholic (and I’ve had the (un?)fortunate experience of having to spend a lot of time around a great number of them) who isn’t quite clear on this point: they hate drinking, they hate being drunk, and they hate the consequences for their lives and loved ones…the whole thing. Maybe I just met the wrong ones. My 2 cents.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

A lot of reasons , one big one of late IMO war profiteering . I heard some where (I could not find anywhere ) that Bush said the American Economy was built on war. Just thin if we fired every soldier How unemployment would SKYROCKET

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

[/quote]

$$$$$$$

That was easy.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

A lot of reasons , one big one of late IMO war profiteering . I heard some where (I could not find anywhere ) that Bush said the American Economy was built on war. Just think if we fired every soldier How unemployment would SKYROCKET
[/quote]

Yes, yes… and just think if we downsized government,… all those people out of jobs. We can’t have that! Oooh and downsizing of politicians. How are they going to survive without taking our money from us?


War is a continuation of politics by other means.
Politics is a continuation of economics by other means.

… War makes special interest groups rich, not the little guy. I think thats why the little guy does hate wars (for the most part. Conflict is, however, innate), but he doesnt have a say in it. The ones in power dictate the battles. They make money and their power grows. Its cyclical.

Money as an explanation doesn’t really go far enough. True words these: “Money isn’t the root of all evil. Evil is the roof of all evil.”

One of the thoughts I had was that we are predators but our weapons make it too easy to predate animals, so maybe we predate on each other.

Alternatively, since we’re pretty successful at reproduction, maybe we’re hard wired to keep the population from rising too quickly. Imagine the population worldwide if we were a completely peaceful species!

If I could comprehend getting in a fistfight, maybe I’d be able to comprehend war. But at the moment, both really confuse me.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
If I could comprehend getting in a fistfight, maybe I’d be able to comprehend war. But at the moment, both really confuse me.[/quote]

If you’re talking about getting into a fight because someone flipped you off, or along those lines, I’m with you on that.

Apparently some people’s egos are so fragile that any insult to them must be responded to with violence, or else they feel “inadequate” somehow. You hit my girl? I’ll fuck your world up. The guy in the car next to me at a stoplight calls me a bitch? I’ll laugh at him for his insecurity.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

  1. Because sinners hate sin - but they cannot help themselves from sinning. Much the way alcoholics hate drinking, but keep lifting the glass nevertheless.

  2. Because the world is as it is and we ignore certain realities at our peril.

Both.^ [/quote]

Regarding #1: practicing alcoholics don’t hate drinking; they hate the horrible consequences that inevitably come with their drinking. If they could drink consequence-free they would. That’s essentially why war occurs despite all the horrific things that come along with it. We don’t necessarily hate war as a whole society, but virtually all those who do “like” war or go to war certainly wish to do so with the least amount of negative consequences for themselves as possible. In short, we don’t hate war as much as we hate losing them.

We’re not infallible as humans and we live in an inherently contradictory manner. There are all sorts of things we do that do not make sense and engaging in warfare despite what war can do to our society is one of them. Naturally both sides, at the outset of war, feel like they can win and that the price of victory is worth the reward that comes with it. [/quote]

I’ve never met an alcoholic (and I’ve had the (un?)fortunate experience of having to spend a lot of time around a great number of them) who isn’t quite clear on this point: they hate drinking, they hate being drunk, and they hate the consequences for their lives and loved ones…the whole thing. Maybe I just met the wrong ones. My 2 cents.
[/quote]

Hi, I’m DBCooper. Now you’ve met a (recovering) alcoholic who never hated drinking, only the consequences of my actions as a result of drinking.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

  1. Because sinners hate sin - but they cannot help themselves from sinning. Much the way alcoholics hate drinking, but keep lifting the glass nevertheless.

  2. Because the world is as it is and we ignore certain realities at our peril.

Both.^ [/quote]

Regarding #1: practicing alcoholics don’t hate drinking; they hate the horrible consequences that inevitably come with their drinking. If they could drink consequence-free they would. That’s essentially why war occurs despite all the horrific things that come along with it. We don’t necessarily hate war as a whole society, but virtually all those who do “like” war or go to war certainly wish to do so with the least amount of negative consequences for themselves as possible. In short, we don’t hate war as much as we hate losing them.

We’re not infallible as humans and we live in an inherently contradictory manner. There are all sorts of things we do that do not make sense and engaging in warfare despite what war can do to our society is one of them. Naturally both sides, at the outset of war, feel like they can win and that the price of victory is worth the reward that comes with it. [/quote]

I’ve never met an alcoholic (and I’ve had the (un?)fortunate experience of having to spend a lot of time around a great number of them) who isn’t quite clear on this point: they hate drinking, they hate being drunk, and they hate the consequences for their lives and loved ones…the whole thing. Maybe I just met the wrong ones. My 2 cents.
[/quote]

Hi, I’m DBCooper. Now you’ve met a (recovering) alcoholic who never hated drinking, only the consequences of my actions as a result of drinking.[/quote]

From my experience - which is unfortunately extensive and very personal - that’s very unusual. Be that as it may - perhaps we’re talking past one another: because I’m not saying that one isn’t, of course, perpetually attracted to something in it. That goes without saying.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
One of the thoughts I had was that we are predators but our weapons make it too easy to predate animals, so maybe we predate on each other.

Alternatively, since we’re pretty successful at reproduction, maybe we’re hard wired to keep the population from rising too quickly. Imagine the population worldwide if we were a completely peaceful species![/quote]
You’re not gonna wanna hear this, but at bottom the answer is selfishness. Somebody always wants what somebody else has or sees somebody else as an impediment to getting what they want badly enough to kill them for it. It can be anything from land/resources to respect/prestige to fanatical causes and anything in between or any combination therein. Gimme, get outta my way, do it like this or die. Or maybe even AND die.

This goes for Alisa’s fist fights all the way up to world wars. In other words katzenjammer was essentially correct.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
One of the thoughts I had was that we are predators but our weapons make it too easy to predate animals, so maybe we predate on each other.

Alternatively, since we’re pretty successful at reproduction, maybe we’re hard wired to keep the population from rising too quickly. Imagine the population worldwide if we were a completely peaceful species![/quote]
You’re not gonna wanna hear this, but at bottom the answer is selfishness. Somebody always wants what somebody else has or sees somebody else as an impediment to getting what they want badly enough to kill them for it. It can be anything from land/resources to respect/prestige to fanatical causes and anything in between or any combination therein. Gimme, get outta my way, do it like this or die. Or maybe even AND die.

This goes for Alisa’s fist fights all the way up to world wars. In other words katzenjammer was essentially correct.[/quote]

It’s a territorial thing, all living organisms exhibit the same behaviour, all the way from bacteria. So in that sense, it is correct to say we are all corrupt/sinners. It is a basic characteristic of life.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
One of the thoughts I had was that we are predators but our weapons make it too easy to predate animals, so maybe we predate on each other.

Alternatively, since we’re pretty successful at reproduction, maybe we’re hard wired to keep the population from rising too quickly. Imagine the population worldwide if we were a completely peaceful species![/quote]

I think we’re on the same side of this argument, HH. I’m no pacifist. Warfare has existed ever since agriculture became widespread. And I would argue that humans have been competing for resources long before that. With the advent of agriculture (conservatively 12000 years ago) larger populations were able to concentrate and exchange ideas and technology. War was inevitable at that point. More humans = more “pressure” on a given area = conflict.

Frankly, it’s the same concept that formed the Universe: A star collapses and forms a Supernova and MASSIVE amounts of energy are released. This energy produces enough heat to forge every element in the Universe. Civilizations are no different: Friction creates conflict which promotes innovation. The denser the population, the higher the friction. The more people you can feed, the denser the population becomes.

War is simply a by-product of agriculture. The higher population creates more complex social/status structures and energy exchange. Now we have a primitive “economy”. As with every economy, it cycles. Sometimes boom, sometimes bust. When some folks are booming, and others busting, the folks that are booming become VERY attractive targets to those that are busting.

Or you can sometimes have a “borg-like” philosophy of assimilation (pardon the shameless StarTrek reference). That one hasn’t gone away. Does the phrase, “let me win your hearts and minds, or we’ll burn your damn huts down” ring a bell for anyone?

At the end of the day, it’s about survival of the fittest. Individually AND collectively.

And then there is the $$$$$…

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…then why do we do it, a lot?

The vast majority of people say they hate war but yet we have something like 4400 recorded wars in human history. Doesn’t that seem rather odd to you guys?

This is really not a troll thread, just trying to get an understanding of why people secretly love war. Its like watching lemmings run into the sea – if the lemmings could talk, wouldn’t you like to ask why they do that?

I’m not implying anyone here is a lemming, btw, or anything negative about anyone. :wink:

(Maybe Angry Chicken will join in the discussion. That would be fun.)[/quote]

A lot of reasons , one big one of late IMO war profiteering . I heard some where (I could not find anywhere ) that Bush said the American Economy was built on war. Just think if we fired every soldier How unemployment would SKYROCKET
[/quote]

Yes, yes… and just think if we downsized government,… all those people out of jobs. We can’t have that! Oooh and downsizing of politicians. How are they going to survive without taking our money from us?


War is a continuation of politics by other means.
Politics is a continuation of economics by other means.

… War makes special interest groups rich, not the little guy. I think thats why the little guy does hate wars (for the most part. Conflict is, however, innate), but he doesnt have a say in it. The ones in power dictate the battles. They make money and their power grows. Its cyclical.[/quote]

Your Preaching to the choir Bro

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
If I could comprehend getting in a fistfight, maybe I’d be able to comprehend war. But at the moment, both really confuse me.[/quote]

There are reasons to fist fight, biggest one i can think of is self preservation

I think what needs to be asked is why someone would fight for his country. If war is something that profits to a small group of elite then why would I participate in it. Why would I fight anyone that is not directly threatening me.

If a war breaks out don’t expect me pointing a gun on anyone but on the guy that is threatening me, the guy who wants to forcefully recruit my in his army or the guy from another army who has been told to shot me.

Canada or Quebec is getting threatened? Why would I give a shit how good my country is supposed to be. Why would I care if I am part of the new empire of china or anything as long as I am not bothered by any idiots with a gun (or sheperd is what they call themselves I think)