If Barack Obama Wasn't Black...

Basically he would be John Edwards. A charasmatic, younger looking good speaker. Actually he is much better than Edwards at public speaking closer to the ultimate used-car salesman Bill Clinton. Of course his being black has helped him get votes that he wouldn’t if he was white and had the same voting record. At the same time that race will keep him from certain people’s votes period.

It’s like trying to argue that being Catholic or young and charasmatic had nothing to do with JFK’s campaign. Let’s get over the BS side arguments and look at his voting records, not a promise of change but the actual records of his actions thus far.

91% of North Carolina black democratic voters voted for Obama. If he were white, and since his policies are very similar to Hillary’s, they’d have split that vote closer to 50/50. His skin color delivered this vote. That is a shame.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
91% of North Carolina black democratic voters voted for Obama. If he were white, and since his policies are very similar to Hillary’s, they’d have split that vote closer to 50/50. [/quote]

He didn’t vote for the war on Iraq. And given the over-representation of racial minorities in the US army, I seriously doubt they’d be voting for someone who puts them in harm’s way unnecessarily.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
91% of North Carolina black democratic voters voted for Obama. If he were white, and since his policies are very similar to Hillary’s, they’d have split that vote closer to 50/50.

He didn’t vote for the war on Iraq. And given the over-representation of racial minorities in the US army, I seriously doubt they’d be voting for someone who puts them in harm’s way unnecessarily. [/quote]

He was not in the Senate for the Iraq war vote. Who knows what he would have done if he had access to the same info Hillary had at the time.

Even Ron Paul voted for the war in Afghanistan even though he says he caved to pressure and regrets his vote.

[quote]lixy wrote:
He didn’t vote for the war on Iraq. And given the over-representation of racial minorities in the US army, I seriously doubt they’d be voting for someone who puts them in harm’s way unnecessarily. [/quote]

O RLY?

source: ABCNews.com:

76 percent are white and more than 400 called California home --the most of any state.
A closer look at US military deaths in Iraq:
Percentages by service branch:
Army: 72 percent
Percentages by ethnic group:
White: 75 percent
Hispanic or Latino: 11 percent
Black or African American: 9 percent
Asian: 2
Percent; multiple races, pending, or unknown: 1 percent
American Indian or Alaska Native: 1 percent
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 1 percent

Yeah… I’d say the Blacks voted for Obama based on skin color, not on your shit argument, Lixy.

[quote]gatesoftanhauser wrote:
lixy wrote:
He didn’t vote for the war on Iraq. And given the over-representation of racial minorities in the US army, I seriously doubt they’d be voting for someone who puts them in harm’s way unnecessarily.

O RLY?

source: ABCNews.com:

76 percent are white and more than 400 called California home --the most of any state.
A closer look at US military deaths in Iraq:
Percentages by service branch:
Army: 72 percent
Percentages by ethnic group:
White: 75 percent
Hispanic or Latino: 11 percent
Black or African American: 9 percent
Asian: 2
Percent; multiple races, pending, or unknown: 1 percent
American Indian or Alaska Native: 1 percent
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 1 percent

Yeah… I’d say the Blacks voted for Obama based on skin color, not on your shit argument, Lixy.

[/quote]

The white number is prolly like, 61%, if I remember our government counts Latinos as ‘whites.’ And then seperately as ‘Hispanics’ on their own.

BTW, I think Obama is as close to McCain for going to war. i don’t know why but I feel him and Hillary if given the power probably have bigger inadequacy issues than any leader.

Barack Obama, will prolly turn the US Military into global baby sitters, dumpign the marines off in some stupid negro african bush war over who gets to rape the most children to cure aids, Esmalaheadis or the Ybigowangas?

And Hillary wil have off us enforcing women’s rights, up in Afghanistan and Iraq ultra fiercely…

I think Ron Paul would have kept us out of foriegn countries but prolly would have chased all the mexican immigrants out of the country with a new gestapo.

I think McCain is going to just plunge us into World War.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
He was not in the Senate for the Iraq war vote. Who knows what he would have done if he had access to the same info Hillary had at the time. [/quote]

What bloody info? Quit making it seem as if there was ever a sensible case to annihilate Iraq and turn it into a terrorist breeding ground.

There is no info, and there never was anything that could have justified thousands of dead people, countless injuries and millions of refugees. People were caught up in nationalistic fervor and needed blood to flow to appease them. Hillary blew with the wind.

Now, I don’t know if Obama would have been so critical of attacking Iraq if he “wasn’t black”, but neither do you. I still think he would have drawn more support from the minorities and youth (huge overlap between the two categories) simply because he doesn’t have Hillary’s baggage.

What’s Afghanistan or Ron Paul have to do with anything here?

[quote]gatesoftanhauser wrote:
lixy wrote:
He didn’t vote for the war on Iraq. And given the over-representation of racial minorities in the US army, I seriously doubt they’d be voting for someone who puts them in harm’s way unnecessarily.

O RLY?

source: ABCNews.com:

76 percent are white and more than 400 called California home --the most of any state.
A closer look at US military deaths in Iraq:
Percentages by service branch:
Army: 72 percent
Percentages by ethnic group:
White: 75 percent
Hispanic or Latino: 11 percent
Black or African American: 9 percent
Asian: 2
Percent; multiple races, pending, or unknown: 1 percent
American Indian or Alaska Native: 1 percent
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 1 percent

Yeah… I’d say the Blacks voted for Obama based on skin color, not on your shit argument, Lixy. [/quote]

A dead man is a dead man. You can’t put him in harm’s way.

A young guy with family and friends has a lot to lose if some president decides to attack countries for no good reason.

The key is to look at enlistments, not deaths. And minorities are hugely over-represented in the military.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
He was not in the Senate for the Iraq war vote. Who knows what he would have done if he had access to the same info Hillary had at the time.

What bloody info? Quit making it seem as if there was ever a sensible case to annihilate Iraq and turn it into a terrorist breeding ground.

There is no info, and there never was anything that could have justified thousands of dead people, countless injuries and millions of refugees. People were caught up in nationalistic fervor and needed blood to flow to appease them. Hillary blew with the wind.

Now, I don’t know if Obama would have been so critical of attacking Iraq if he “wasn’t black”, but neither do you. I still think he would have drawn more support from the minorities and youth (huge overlap between the two categories) simply because he doesn’t have Hillary’s baggage.

[/quote]

Bullshit. There is far more info than you and I will ever know.

[quote]

Even Ron Paul voted for the war in Afghanistan even though he says he caved to pressure and regrets his vote.

What’s Afghanistan or Ron Paul have to do with anything here?[/quote]

Merely pointing out that the biggest anti war candidate of them all voted to go to war.

Obama has discussed going to war with Pakistan. What makes you think he wouldn’t have voted for war with Iraq? Some statements he made when we hasn’t in a position to vote? Meaningless.

[quote]lixy wrote:

What bloody info? Quit making it seem as if there was ever a sensible case to annihilate Iraq and turn it into a terrorist breeding ground.

There is no info, and there never was anything that could have justified thousands of dead people, countless injuries and millions of refugees. People were caught up in nationalistic fervor and needed blood to flow to appease them. Hillary blew with the wind.[/quote]

More of the same from Lixy. There was a sensible case, it has been shown to you, and the threshold is not whether you agree with it, but whether it was sensible - i.e., it made sense.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Basically he would be John Edwards. A charasmatic, younger looking good speaker. Actually he is much better than Edwards at public speaking closer to the ultimate used-car salesman Bill Clinton. Of course his being black has helped him get votes that he wouldn’t if he was white and had the same voting record. At the same time that race will keep him from certain people’s votes period.[/quote]

Agreed.

I was thinking today that maybe some people think that Obama is actually Denzel Washington. In fact, I bet that Obama and Denzel could switch places and no one would even notice!

This Obama-mania is very confusing to me. I think many of Obama-maniacs are completely clueless about politics, government, or what is really at stake here. I think these people watch too much TV and are easily dazzled by someone who can “tawk gooder”, the same way some people are dazzled by shiny objects.

The fanaticism is scary. Obama could be on TV throwing live kittens into a blender and hitting frappe, and these people will still love him.

[quote]Guerrero wrote:
And what if John Edwards were ugly and John Kerry were handsome. STFU man, you’re acting stupid.

Obama leads cuz he’s a strong speaker, and every politican is dirty.

If we’re talking criminality, people straigt up dissapeared when they scrutinized the Clintons, and McCain is a lackey for foriegn governments, and funnels our tax dollars into their military industries. Airbus anyone?

A-12 anyone?

If you think Barack Obama has an unfair advantage because he is black, his advantage is no more unfair than Reagan for being white, do you think Reagan could have won the ‘silent majority’ as a black man?

Give me a break man, quit fuckign around, put your head on straight.[/quote]

Your grammar instincts are sound (see later post), but your logic needs work.

Exactly what was the problem with the Airbus contract? Was there really an issue with McCain reforming no-bid contracts? I thought those were supposed to be problematic… Weapons of Mass Discussion: McCain's Boeing "Problem"

As for implying Reagan was racist, Whatchutalkinabout Willis?

[quote]entheogens wrote:
The question is, if Hillary Clinton weren’t white, would she even be in the contest now? No, she would not. She’s the one playing the race card with the Rev. Wright issue.

I believe that most people-soundly or unsoundly-vote for Barack because he represents HOPE. As I said, that may be sound or unsound but that is the reason they are voting for him, not because of the color of his skin.[/quote]

I think this whole question is a reaction to the media storyline that working class whites are racist because they vote for Hillary at between 60-75% level.

The comparison, and logic, are telling.

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZmQ4MDIyZmFhZGZhM2FhZGViZDFmMTFlZTkwNjI0Zjg=

[i]The Continuing Racial Polarization of the Electorate

I was at a party a few weeks back, and talk turned to the presidential race. One guest, an immigrant from Europe, expressed shock and anger that Barack Obama commanded such an overwhelming lead in the African-American vote, contending that these voters were putting skin color above all other factors. Not terribly eager to push against an intractable position, I responded that in this election and past, we’ve seen many demographic groups vote for the candidate who shares their characteristics - older women voting for Hillary, evangelicals voting for Huckabee, Mormons voting for Romney, veterans voting for McCain �?? and that this was just more of the same. And voters usually prefer a candidate who is from their geographic location; every candidate usually wins their home state by an overwhelming margin; Illinoisans like Obama, New Yorkers prefer Hillary, Arizonans like McCain, etc. Complaining about voters preferring candidates who share traits with them is like complaining about the weather.

African-Americans are free to vote for whoever they like, obviously. But as the primary stretches on, and it becomes clear that overwhelming and monolithic support among African-Americans is putting Obama over the top, I wonder how other voter demographics will react.

Obama carried 91 percent of the African-American vote in North Carolina and 90 percent of the African-American vote in Indiana. No other demographic was anywhere near so lopsided in their support; the closest were non-college whites who split 71-26 for Hillary in North Carolina; 65-35 for Hillary in Indiana.

(And all of this comes after the Wright mess. Obama stands by Wright in his Philly speech, and African-Americans stand by him. Wright says Obama dealt with the controversy like a politician, and Obama denounces him fully… and it would appear it had no effect on Obama’s support among this demographic.)

Now look at some of the recent analysis of the race:

Thomas Frank, New York Daily News ( http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/05/07/2008-05-07_ugly_truth_why_hillary_clinton_wont_quit.html ): “With the largest number of remaining delegates now being party insiders, they have to decide if Obama can overcome enough of that antipathy - essentially deciding if enough working-class whites will back away from the black candidate, whether because of the false Muslim rumors, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright flap or old-fashioned racism.”

Mary Mitchell, Chicago Sun-Times ( http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/933314,CST-NWS-mitch06.article ): “For instance, reported on the New York Times blog on Monday was a piece by a reporter who went to a ‘mostly white highly educated, professional . . . politically independent’ area and found voters were ‘unaffected’ by the Wright controversy. But the reporter also found that while supporters of both Clinton and Obama said ‘they did not think the Wright episode should change the race’ they feared it might in other areas where ‘people might be searching for some acceptable explanation for not voting for a black candidate.’ That’s a truth that many will call a lie.”

Al Hunt, Bloomberg News ( Bloomberg - Are you a robot? ): “There may have been some element of racism among these culturally conservative voters, who support Democrats if they think the politician is strong and empathetic toward their struggles; Obama appeared neither.”

Richard Kim, The Nation ( http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/318011 ): “Are white working-class voters really racist? How many and where? If a significant number of them are, should Democrats really court them on the terms of their racism? These are questions worth asking since, apparently, a lot of Democrats think they’re valid. But as long as the Clinton campaign continues to code the fact that it is counting on a base of white racist support, we’ll never have this conversation.”

African-Americans are voting overwhelmingly for a candidate who shares their skin color, but it’s being repeatedly suggested that white working-class voters are motivated by racism. Is this the “national conversation on race” that Obama had in mind in his Philly speech?[/i]

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

The fanaticism is scary. Obama could be on TV throwing live kittens into a blender and hitting frappe, and these people will still love him.[/quote]

That’s what bewilders me. Nothing the man does affects how black people vote, they vote for him anyway. I realize they may hate Hillary but HC and BO are very similar in their core positions. They should be much closer to 50/50 if you looked at issues.

[quote]Your grammar instincts are sound (see later post), but your logic needs work.

Exactly what was the problem with the Airbus contract? Was there really an issue with McCain reforming no-bid contracts? I thought those were supposed to be problematic… http://massdiscussion.blogspot

As for implying Reagan was racist, Whatchutalkinabout Willis?[/quote]

Lockheed and Boeing are two that would have bid among others, to let a foriegn country’s military industry get us tax dollars is bullshit.

Especially fucking France. I don’t hate France or have a problem with them, but they weren’t in Iraq and I don’t even think they are in NATO.

If you don’t think McCain got some kind of pay off from the French lobby, then you are just saying that he is an anti-american idiot.

I’d respect him more if he were corrupt but otherwise, but if he really think giving foriegn country’s our tax dollars is a good thing…he’s just a tard.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
skaz05 wrote:

The fanaticism is scary. Obama could be on TV throwing live kittens into a blender and hitting frappe, and these people will still love him.

That’s what bewilders me. Nothing the man does affects how black people vote, they vote for him anyway. I realize they may hate Hillary but HC and BO are very similar in their core positions. They should be much closer to 50/50 if you looked at issues.

[/quote]

So now identity voting is evil?

Are we seriously proposing that being black is an ADVANTAGE in an election? Seriously? Any advantage it brings is canceled and probably outweighed by racism, whether it be blatant or subtle.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

So now identity voting is evil?[/quote]

I don’t think it is evil, but it is dumb, hypocritical, and antithetical to our principles.

I think there is a simpler explanation - Obama consolidated the black vote in the Democratic primary, but in the general election, the black vote has been effectively consolidated anyway since blacks vote overwhelmingly Democrat anyway.

So any advantage of the consolidated black vote does little in the general election. Every Democratic in recent memory had the “black vote” in his camp, and demographically, that isn’t enough to carry the day.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

So now identity voting is evil?

I don’t think it is evil, but it is dumb, hypocritical, and antithetical to our principles.

Are we seriously proposing that being black is an ADVANTAGE in an election? Seriously? Any advantage it brings is canceled and probably outweighed by racism, whether it be blatant or subtle.

I think there is a simpler explanation - Obama consolidated the black vote in the Democratic primary, but in the general election, the black vote has been effectively consolidated anyway since blacks vote overwhelmingly Democrat anyway.

So any advantage of the consolidated black vote does little in the general election. Every Democratic in recent memory had the “black vote” in his camp, and demographically, that isn’t enough to carry the day.[/quote]

Agreed. A much more rational explanation. I’m sorry I missed it earlier.

Identity voting is stupid yes. It also wins elections.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

Identity voting is stupid yes. It also wins elections. [/quote]

I think it could - if it were based on gender lines (purely), that would change a given election. That would be a stronger case for identity politics having a real effect on a general election.

Not sure Hillary is necessarily the candidate to do that, and I would be skeptical that anyone else could, but if a female candidate could “wrap up” the female vote, that would be a big general election advantage.

If people stopped using racial or sexual discrimination… but that won’t happen.

For the purpose of that post:

Discrimination (n):
Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.