Idealism - What Now?

No question, we’re all going to do better if we continue putting forth the effort to push ourselves in the gym. And I guess you find a level of leanness where you can be mostly satisfied with how you look and feel. Any bulking I do at this point is unintentional, meaning I loose the motivation to stay away from junk food. For me, it’s really not worth the tiny gains I might make.

Most of you guys have been training for MANY more years than me, which is probably a bit of a mental disadvantage. You can remember how strong you were when you were 25 and so you can’t help but see some decline. I would love to know what my potential would have been if I’d started when I was young, but the upside is I’m now stronger than I’ve ever been. It’s nice to feel like I’m at least “winning” something. :slight_smile: The aging process is even harder on women, IMO.

Anyway, to the OP. You have enough sense to identify issues - put it into action. Work on eliminating the beer and candy. I suggest identifying the one you’re least attached to and attacking that.

If it’s beer, replace it with, say, a high quality shake (I know, not the same). When you’re successful at that - move onto the candy.

If it’s candy, maybe a smaller quantity of fruit.

Small shifts like this are infinitely more successful in the long term than the full on overhaul you mainly see posted (which is why I like that simple athlete diet). Our brains are wired for quick results though and this way of thinking is a skill in itself.

Anyway, that should keep you busy for 6 to 8 weeks and yield good results assuming you don’t overdo the shakes and fruit. At which point we can find other areas to improve

[quote]The Myth wrote:
I am 52 years old, 6’1", weigh 185 pounds and am at about 14% body fat. I would like to get to 10%. I have abs, but would like to be leaner.

I’m confused about where to go from here and am not even sure this is the right forum, but figured I would throw it out there and see what happens.

I have been lifting off and on for thirty years, but have been in the gym pretty serious for the last two years. My diet is okay, but not great. I like to drink a few beers and have a sweet tooth. I lift 3-5 days a week on a three day split, do cardio three or four days a week, and do karate another two or three days a week.

Two years ago I was 215 at 25% bodyfat, so I am making progress, but I feel stalled, and am confused - should I continue trying to cut or should I try to add mass?

I know that muscle burns more calories than fat, and I know that at 52 it will be tough to add LBM, but I am on TRT. My LBM has gone up significantly in the last year on TRT, and I suspect if I just ride it out I might achieve my goals, but I truly wonder whether I should be cutting or clean bulking.

I’ve been fucking around with FFMI and realize I could potentially get to 170lbs of lbm, about eight more than I am now, and be at 10% BF at 185 pounds, my current weight, but again, wonder if I should cut or build mass.

Most of my friends tell me I am too skinny, and my female colleagues call me manorexic, but they only see me in clothes and don’t realize my BMI is borderline overweight.

So, lift and gain, or cut to get to 10% body fat.

Let er rip!
[/quote]

DISCLAIMER: I’m definitely nowhere near 52, so if you only want feedback from those in your age bracket, feel free to stop reading.

I read your OP several times, read the various responses, and decided to stay on the sideline.

For some reason though, I have this itch I need to scratch so here goes…

BlueCollar states that, at your age, “the LBM ship as sailed.”

Consider the possibility this may apply to only those who’ve lifted/bodybuild at a high level from their 20s or 30s. For them, it does indeed make sense that, once you hit your 50s it becomes a maintenance game.

However, although you say you’ve lifted “off and on for thirty years” everything you write makes me suspect you’ve been doing so at a neophyte level. To use a karate analogy (since you study it), lifters like BlueCollar are weight room black belts; you, on the other hand, are probably closer to yellow…maybe orange on a good day.

If this is true, then it’s great news for you!

Like most lifters I see at commercial gyms, you’re probably doing little more than simply manipulating the weight from point A to B (which may be fine if powerlifting or Oly lifting is your goal).

In other words, most people who TRY to lift for hypertrophy don’t know how to use the weight as a tool to properly stimulate the targeted muscles. This is a skill the average gym rat will never possess…which is why he’ll always be average.

Let’s be realistic. Will you look like a Zane or a Nubret in their prime? Of course not. Hell, most 20-30 year old gym rats will never look that good.

But if you start each day with the belief that you still have some untapped potential, you’re off to a good start.

If you buy into the doom and gloom scenario, everything you do will feed this self-fulfilling prophecy.

Personally, I know what decision I’d make…

  1. You’ll have to make significant sacrifices. Much to my GF’s chagrin, I’ve blown off more than a few social events if it meant my training or recovery would be compromised.

  2. You’ll have to live a highly regimented life. You can no longer eat and drink what you crave when you feel like it; you’ll have to accept eating what you may not want when you’re not hungry. Conversely, you’ll need the discipline to pass on garbage, no matter how tempting (don’t justify it by saying you’re bulking). Get quality sleep as often as possible; I’m convinced this is critical.

  3. You’ll need to learn to stay healthy. Learn anatomy, exercise science, nutrition, the difference between intelligent/focused training and random shit that just makes you sweat. Learn to exploit book knowledge and empirical knowledge. Know the difference between a legit poster or author on sites like this and some DYEL loser who merely regurgitates what he read or heard elsewhere. Because your goal is bodybuilding oriented, this is easy: just look at their photos to see if they practice what they preach.

  4. Accept that more isn’t necessarily better. For example, you say you’re doing “cardio three or four days a week, and do karate another two or three days a week…” I studied Hapkido and Taekwondo in high school so I know just how strenuous those classes can be. In all likelihood, you’re probably in some state of gluconeogenesis during these sessions which absoFUCKINGlutely won’t help with LBM gains. Don’t know what that fancy word means? Refer to #3 re: exercise science.

  5. Cultivate an instinct for doing what your body needs. Very few, I believe, reach this level.

If I had to lay odds you can make reasonable changes to your physique, I’d say there’s a three percent chance. Hundred guys like you with the same ambitions, and three will succeed. Which is still better than zero.

And sometimes a long shot is better than no shot.

I see many people here are speaking of chronological age. As stated above, training age also dictates how much more potential can be tapped. I don’t want to be pessimistic, but I believe if everything is done right, although not perfect, there are not much gains to be had in muscle mass for naturals past the five year mark, regardless of age!

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I see many people here are speaking of chronological age. As stated above, training age also dictates how much more potential can be tapped. I don’t want to be pessimistic, but I believe if everything is done right, although not perfect, there are not much gains to be had in muscle mass for naturals past the five year mark, regardless of age! [/quote]

The timeline you describe sounds about right, give or take a few years to account for individual variance.

I still suspect the op is one of those guys who wasn’t doing everything right…not even close. Just look at all the anaerobic work he’s doing outside the weightroom!

I see people butchering the simplest exercises all the time. And more than a few men and women his age are at a stage in which their belief systems have ossified. The fact the op started this thread makes me infer he’s somewhat open to suggestions, which is why I replied.

If the op adopts the right mindset and does everything he’s supposed to, he just might surprise alot of people. And if things don’t work out as planned, this time next year he’ll be one year older anyway. So, since the passion is there, why not take that long shot? He may not have the physique he desired but he’ll probably be healthier.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I see many people here are speaking of chronological age. As stated above, training age also dictates how much more potential can be tapped. I don’t want to be pessimistic, but I believe if everything is done right, although not perfect, there are not much gains to be had in muscle mass for naturals past the five year mark, regardless of age! [/quote]

I know we’re talking about muscle mass/ hypertrophy here but this reminded me of lil’ power, who used to log here.

As I recall, she lifted for many years, but maybe without a lot of direction in the gym. Then she found PLing and has achieved elite strength levels when well into her 40’s and early '50’s. She had an athletic background, and had built at least some foundation before, but she seemed to enjoy the 5 year window you’re talking about much later. Either that, or she’d built a lot more muscle than she’d realized when in her “BBer phase” and so she was able to quickly progress to winning/placing at the national level once she became more skilled at the compound lifts. Either way, she’s super inspiring.

Minotaur, what you say makes a lot of sense, and if true would explain the difference between my experience and what Bluecollar is saying. Even though I’m 50 chronologically, I never did much besides running, swimming and military PT in my youth, started doing Crossfit in my mid-40’s, and didn’t start working to get big and strong until a few years ago, so my ‘training age’ from a strength sport perspective is probably about 3… That bodes well for the OP, even if he isn’t willing to eat to fuel strength goals like I am, a diet with a few hundred calories above maintenance and enough protein can probably build him some muscle without getting fat.

Appreciate the take Mino, very funny, off base on a few points, but very close to home on others. I had a similar view with respect to training age, and just to put it in context. I truly haven’t ever lifted for hypertrophy, it was always for athletic purposes - I was a golf pro for years and have always been an athlete. Only in the last two years have I commenced on this effort to add LBM so my lifting age is young, but not specifically for the reasons you mentioned.

I took the LBM ship as sailing with a grain of salt because I have had what I consider significant success in the past 18 months or so since I got back in the gym with a passion, making it a priority instead of a luxury. Can I learn? Absolutely. Am I totally clueless? No. But your point is valid.

I do believe I can add LBM, but it is going to be because I haven’t lifted for BB before. It will be difficult because of my age, but not impossible. FWIW, I’ve dropped all candy since the OP and started cycling carbs. I suspect my routine could use some work and have looked around for a trainer but haven’t found one as yet. I suspect I have some technique issues that may not be remedied by more reading (I’ve always been fascinated with BB’ing and read a lot when I was younger but not lifting for that purpose). And, again for what it’s worth, aesthetically, I have made some amazing changes in the last two years - down from 215@26% to 188@12%. I’m not sure how accurate those BF% are (BIA) but that’s 6lbs of LBM gained in about two years which is pretty good for an old POS like me.

Moving forward, I’ve concluded that while my diet doesn’t suck as bad as it could, it’s nowhere near as good as it could be. I’ve made some changes that I hope will help and will re-assess in a few weeks but so far it seems to be helping.

Thanks again to everybody for weighing in.

Golf pro? Wait, so you’re not actually Alec Baldwin?

[quote]The Myth wrote:

I took the LBM ship as sailing with a grain of salt because I have had what I consider significant success in the past 18 months or so since I got back in the gym with a passion, making it a priority instead of a luxury. Can I learn? Absolutely. Am I totally clueless? No. But your point is valid.

I do believe I can add LBM, but it is going to be because I haven’t lifted for BB before.

[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback.

Since you made a living playing golf, chances are your kinesthetic awareness and proprioception are superior to the average person. This can only benefit you in the weight room.

I’ll give you an example I saw the other day. I noticed him because a) he was approximately your age and this thread was fresh in my mind; b) he displayed an intensity which I found admirable. He was doing ez-bar curls; nothing wrong with working guns - hell, I personally love it and am convinced that any male who lifts weights and claims he doesn’t care about arms is a liar.

Unfortunately, there were several errors I saw:

  1. He initiated the movement with a vertical hip thrust to get through the sticking point. Cheat curls have their place. But if the eccentric isn’t controlled at all, what’s the point?

  2. He cocked his wrists inward towards his body to shorten the lever arm from the first rep. What does this tell me…? The weight is too heavy.

  3. He did what I call the weight room curtsy at the top. This is when the lifter does a small but noticeable bend in his knees (like a curtsy) to help bring the torso closer to the weight rather than letting his biceps (the intended target) bring the weight to his torso.

  4. He did nothing to control the eccentric, the portion of the lift when we’re the strongest.

  5. He practically bounced the bar off his thighs, did another vertical hip thrust and started the next rep.

All this fellow had to do was:

  1. lighten up the weight

  2. keep his upper arm relatively motionless at the starting phase

  3. focus on contracting his bicep (and visualizing certainly can help)

  4. make sure to feel a little extra pressure on the part of the hand near the pinkies to make sure he supinates as much as his physiology will allow (second function of the bicep)

  5. IF it helps him, flex his upper arms slightly upward (this does little for me as my front delts take over all too easily but it can help some people as this completes the third function of the biceps brachii)

  6. lose the embarrassing curtsy

  7. control the eccentric (doesn’t have to be slow but he should definitely feel the biceps doing most of the work)

  8. and then, and only then, initiate the movement with a subtle cheat to squeeze out a few extra reps (this is optional)

  9. or perhaps do just the top half to get a few partial reps in

This is the difference, as I stated in my first post, between someone who manipulates the weight from point A to B and someone who lifts for hypertrophy.

Forget about the guys who’ve been dealt a genetic royal flush. Forget about guys juiced to the gills. They can jack off in the weight room and grow.

For the rest of us, we have to be artistic. Every exercise we perform and the way in which we perform them absolutely must have purpose directed towards a specific goal.

[quote]OTHSteve wrote:
Minotaur, what you say makes a lot of sense, and if true would explain the difference between my experience and what Bluecollar is saying. Even though I’m 50 chronologically, I never did much besides running, swimming and military PT in my youth, started doing Crossfit in my mid-40’s, and didn’t start working to get big and strong until a few years ago, so my ‘training age’ from a strength sport perspective is probably about 3… That bodes well for the OP, even if he isn’t willing to eat to fuel strength goals like I am, a diet with a few hundred calories above maintenance and enough protein can probably build him some muscle without getting fat.[/quote]

Yes, I’m convinced there are guys like you. Just far and few in between who recognize the potential, keep an open mind, make sacrifices, and put in the god damn work. This is what I meant, in my earlier post, when I theorized only three out of a hundred will succeed.

The margin for error is so much smaller for those in your age bracket; but as long as the individual is aware of this, it should help motivate him to be that much more precise in his approach.

See, that’s exactly what I meant, the technique aspect. I believe one of the biggest obstacles to success is missing gym time, and, to that end, because of my age, I am extremely averse to injury - it’s the one thing that can keep me out of the gym. Because of that, I tend to hold back a bit, to not push it as much as I could in the interest of staying healthy. I know this slows my gains, but I have learned to avoid doing anything full speed or to the max.

I lift with much lighter weights than a lot of guys, focus on the negative of the lift, and often hold the contraction. Part of me thinks I’m a big sissy, but another part of me knows that injury avoidance is key to sticking to the routine.

So, I’m not doing the curtsy thing, I’m not throwing the weight, but I might not be lifting as heavy as I could be. I do reach failure, but typically, not until the final rep of my final set.

Appreciate the discussion!

[quote]The Myth wrote:
See, that’s exactly what I meant, the technique aspect. I believe one of the biggest obstacles to success is missing gym time, and, to that end, because of my age, I am extremely averse to injury - it’s the one thing that can keep me out of the gym. Because of that, I tend to hold back a bit, to not push it as much as I could in the interest of staying healthy. I know this slows my gains, but I have learned to avoid doing anything full speed or to the max.

Appreciate the discussion![/quote]

Actually this approach can PROLONG gains, rather than the constant balls-to-the-wall approach that many had success with, but wound up being semi-cripples in the long run. Look at Phil Heath and Jay Cutler and the way they train as opposed to Ronnie Coleman and Dorian Yates.

Jay is walking around looking great and symmetrical without torn muscles and frayed tendons and joints while Coleman and Yates have serious problems. If I recall correctly, Dorian can’t fully lock out one of his arms and one of his biceps is wrecked.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]The Myth wrote:
See, that’s exactly what I meant, the technique aspect. I believe one of the biggest obstacles to success is missing gym time, and, to that end, because of my age, I am extremely averse to injury - it’s the one thing that can keep me out of the gym. Because of that, I tend to hold back a bit, to not push it as much as I could in the interest of staying healthy. I know this slows my gains, but I have learned to avoid doing anything full speed or to the max.

Appreciate the discussion![/quote]

Actually this approach can PROLONG gains, rather than the constant balls-to-the-wall approach that many had success with, but wound up being semi-cripples in the long run. Look at Phil Heath and Jay Cutler and the way they train as opposed to Ronnie Coleman and Dorian Yates.

Jay is walking around looking great and symmetrical without torn muscles and frayed tendons and joints while Coleman and Yates have serious problems. If I recall correctly, Dorian can’t fully lock out one of his arms and one of his biceps is wrecked. [/quote]

This is why I use 5/3/1 and keep with the progression, even when I know my ‘true’ max is way higher than my training max. I’ve gotten overly ambitious and hurt myself, but fortunately nothing that couldn’t be recovered from, so now I take it slow but steady.

[quote]OTHSteve wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
At your age the additional LBM ‘ship has sailed’. Obstructing the decline is your ideal. Cleaning up the diet until you reach your bodyfat goal and working your ass off to maintain should be your objective. It’s not surrendering; it’s being realistic. FTR I’m working on 53… [/quote]

I absolutely don’t believe this to be true. At 50, and 200#, I’ve added 10# LBM in the last 2 years, without body composition being a goal, working for strength.
[/quote]

This guy is a very solid lifter, gotta take this into account, but what do I know.

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
At your age the additional LBM ‘ship has sailed’. Obstructing the decline is your ideal. Cleaning up the diet until you reach your bodyfat goal and working your ass off to maintain should be your objective. It’s not surrendering; it’s being realistic. FTR I’m working on 53… [/quote]

This is silliness. The guy is 6’1 and 185. Of course he can gain LBM at 52 years old.

OP you say you tend to overthink things and so my feeling is all the debate in this thread about what you are capable of at your age may be distracting you from the most relevant details about your situation.

The two main details about your situation that stick out to me are:

You are on TRT.
You are 6’1 and 185

You can absolutely gain plenty of muscle mass. I doubt you are anywhere near your genetic limit. You might gain 5 lbs and you might gain 20 but you can definitely gain something. On TRT I wouldn’t evn rule out a true recomp. If you are worried about getting fat, beer and candy are the problem. You won’t get fat from having too many protein shakes or eating too much meat.

Just get on a proven program, eat lots of protein and vegetables. You’ll do fine

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
At your age the additional LBM ‘ship has sailed’. Obstructing the decline is your ideal. Cleaning up the diet until you reach your bodyfat goal and working your ass off to maintain should be your objective. It’s not surrendering; it’s being realistic. FTR I’m working on 53… [/quote]

This is silliness. The guy is 6’1 and 185. Of course he can gain LBM at 52 years old.[/quote]

The TRT may make a slight difference; however at that age your endocrine system simple doesn’t operate at a level that advantages new LBM. At bit here, a bit there maybe, buy nothing significant. If single digit BF% is a goal, better to accomplish that first and work from there. I’ll acknowledge anything is possible; there are people that win the big lotto; but I’ve never met one myself.

As the OP I am giggling at this point. I asked for opinions and got them, and they were all well thought out and considerate, and I appreciate that.

The original question was lift and bulk, or cut, and I don’t think we came to a conclusion, but I have. I’ve been successful at the recomp and I think I am going to continue with that with some new strategies - the calorie and carb cycling and trying to improve my technique in the gym. I would love to get to 190 at 10% and I don’t think I am too far away from that. It’s true adding LBM will be a challenge, but I think I can do it because I do not have a long term gym history behind me.

I have cut the candy, beer is next (and I drink Michelob Ultra post workout - making excuses, rationalizing, you bet).

I’m working a nice split that I like, that works well with the carb and calorie cycling, and I feel like I am having some gains, time will tell. I know the TRT is an ace in the pocket for me.

So, to sum up, will continue lifting, will tweak the diet to a deficit of 1000 calories per week, will have that deficit on off days, will eat carbs in the anabolic window, and will update.

Anyone with any more advice, hit me up. I greatly appreciate the help from Mino, OTH, Brick, ED, PP, and everyone else.

[quote]The Myth wrote:
…and trying to improve my technique in the gym.
[/quote]

The average gym rat has no clue how important this is. Once you achieve a higher level, you’ll see this all the time, and don’t be surprised if you have to refrain from cringing openly.

As I had advised before, don’t be that guy who does little more than manipulate the weight from point A to B. Move away from that paradigm and move towards being artistic.

Keep an open mind. Go lighter or slower if that’s what it takes to feel the targeted muscles (once locked in to that right groove, then you can add resistance/change tempo). Experiment with various angles. If you can do these things and do them consistently, the epiphanies will find you.

[quote]The Myth wrote:
Anyone with any more advice, hit me up.[/quote]

I told a guy in another thread that it helps if the questions are more specific. For example, what if someone came to you and asked how he can be a better golfer? Rather overwhelming, isn’t it? Now what if he asked how he can improve his putting skills? See what I’m getting at?