Ideal Scenario for HCG Use???

Please elaborate on why you would do 3 2week cycles instead of one 6 week cycle, is recovery the prime reason?

Your stack pretty much covers both class 1 and 2 and your dosages seems reasonable. 75 mg of tren might be pushing it though…

bateman: The reason for the 2on 3-4off is
because: 1. recovery is easier and faster
than cycles lasting longer than two weeks and
2. because according to Bills article entitled
“Inhibition and Recovery of Natural
Testosterone Production” longer cycles have
different effects on the pituitary than the
2 week cycles. In 2 week cycles only the
hypothalamus is downregulated, after that, the
pituitary also downregulates, making recovery
more difficult. Having 3-4 weeks off between
usage avoids this problem.

I chose 75mg of TA because while searching the Tmag forum archive I found this quote from Bill "50mg of TA will *almost* saturate the AR, while 100mg certainly would." (emphasis added) My goal is to saturate the AR, so I'm guessing that 75mg will do the job.

Yeah I´ve read the article on the old informative.

I still question the efficacy of 2 week cycles
and feel that more time is needed to make the
body “accept” the new muscle- I have no proof
that this is the case, just my experience from
doing a couple of these short cycles some time ago.

The info that 100 mg of tren would completely saturate receptors is all new to me, very interesting.

I would like some more info on how much of
the other type one steroids it takes to achieve this effect (eg. primo and deca).

I think Bill said that it would take at least
a gram of primo per week to saturate the AR
(and maybe more). I’m not sure about the
deca, but it would probably be more than could
be taken w/o unpleasant progesterone side effects. In other words, a stack with another
class I would be needed (I suspect).

Free Extropian wrote: ‘The reason for the 2on 3-4off is because: 1. recovery is…’ Free, these are just Bill’s theories, they have no support in the literature. Bill may be right but until he publishes studies supporting his views there is no compelling reason to base your cycles on his 2on, 4off recommendations.

Just because it’s a theory does not mean it hasn’t proven itself time and time again in the lab and on Bill’s many hundred professional athletes. Sometimes real work experience means more than a published piece of paper. I know for a fact that Bill wouldn’t print something in here without seeing it work first!! If you understand how the hormonal system works, you’d agree that these shorter cycles do in fact lead to less hormonal problems.

Mike, you are correct in that Bill has cited
no references in that article to back up his
claim. Such evidence may exist. I don’t know,
as I don’t have the time to read through the
hundreds of abstracts on medline about the
effects of AAS use. (Despite my numerous posts
on this forum, I do lead a very busy life
outside of bodybuilding.) Bill is a pretty
smart guy (unlike many of the so-called AAS
“gurus”), and I value his voluminous
knowledge and experience (WRT AAS). However, I
don’t take what he says as gospel; I reserve
my own critical judgement. I’ll conclude by
saying I’ve seen people get good results with
both 2week cycles, as well as longer cycles
(3-8 weeks). It comes down to a matter of
personal preference as to the potential
risk/benefit probability. In that regard I
seem to have gotten myself in the middle of a
debate over such personal preferences - and
that is a debate in which I do not want to
participate. So I’ll be bailing out now…

...Except I'm still waiting for Bills opinion as to whether HCG is particularly useful for a 2 week cycle. :-)

If one could avoid ball shrinkage while using AS by taking 500 IU of HCG daily and thus avoid heavy muscle losses at the conclusion of a cycle, why not do longer cycles?

(replying to “carcass”) While HCG at 500 IU
per day keeps the testicles in good working
order so far as testosterone production and
size are concerned (not necessarily so far
as sperm count is concerned, though) it does
nothing to keep the hypothalamus and pituitary
in normal working order. The longer they “sleep”, so to speak, the harder it tends to
be for them to come back to normal operation.
So if say you stayed on steroids for a year,
using HCG the while time, your balls would be
normal sized, but if you ended the cycle,
you’d find yourself probably with almost no
natural T for quite some while and maybe
permanently. And of course you could run into
this problem without going anywhere near
a year in length… as cycles go past 8 weeks,
risk clearly increases, though 10 and 12
weeks do commonly turn out OK, but not always.

On the question of published, peer-reviewed
studies on 2-on/4-off cycles of anabolic
steroids, there are two problems which
absolutely prevent it.

  1. No Independent Review Board will ever
    approve human experimentation with appropriate
    doses of anabolic steroids for this type of
    cycle, namely a gram per week, and even besides
    this, would be unlikely to approve any study
    that is primarily geared towards acquisition
    of muscle in athletes.

  2. No one is likely to pay for such a study,
    could it even be performed (see #1).

Does this matter? No, results are results,
regardless of whether some guys who happens
to have a similar education to myself happen
to agree that an article is worth publishing.
In bb’ing, results actually experienced by
people are far more important.

Bill so what would be better, use HCG @ 500 IU for 20 days after a cycle or using the 5000 IU a week for 2 weeks?

(to Ripped) Which would be better? Please see below, and other discussions on the topic.

I just wanted to let everybody know that I have been able to completely avoid ball-shrinkage,impotence and gynecomastia by using arimidex during the cycle (only 1/4 of a tablet every 5th day).I cut the tablets with a very sharp knife.I m on testosterone enanthate(5000mg/week).Have been on for a year now.

If that´s 5 grams of test, you need to lay off the crack…

Also, Aridimex is an excellent drug for reducing aromatase, which translates into less
estrogen, but I don´t see how that´s gonna save your nuts…

Bill, thank you very much for your response. What I had in mind for a cycle was no longer than 12 weeks. What I’m still not clear about in regards to the daily use of 500 iu Hcg during a cycle is when to start it. I mean, do I start the Hcg on day one of the cycle and continue daily to the end of the cycle or do I anticipate when suppression of the HPTA may occur,perhaps 2 weeks into the cycle and start then?

If the money and the availability are there,
I like using the HCG right from the start,
but if availability is an issue, you can
certainly wait until there is either
enough shrinkage to bother you, or until
two weeks before the end of the cycle to
start the HCG and then use for just 2 weeks.

(The end of the cycle is not the day of the
last injection, but the last injection plus
a few half lives of the drug. For example,
if using a gram per week of testosterone
enanthate, the cycle is over at about 4 half
lives, or about 20 days after the last
injection. At a 500 mg/week dosing level, you
could call the cycle over 5 days earlier than

Hey, bateman. you don t see how arimidex can keep the nuts from shrinking? Well, are you telling me that you don t know that estrogen has a negative effect on the body s own testosterone production? You don t get mutch nut- shrinkage from non-aromatizing drugs (unless they have a progesterone-like effect.) Thats becouse while on them alone, there is no estrogen to shut down the body s own testosterone production. It s estrogen that in a way tells the body s endocrinological system:- hey! there is a hell of a lot of testosterone around here …slow down the production-This is just basic stuff really…it has been written about in many mags already.You should read mags, not just look at the pictures…

Oh please, like estrogen is the only thing
shutting down natural T ?
Who are you, Bill Phillips long lost son or something?

There is no way that using testosterone for that long would not supress natural T.

I recommend that you read Bill Roberts article “Inhibition and recovery of testosterone production” - it´s at.mesomorphosis .

If you really are using 5 grams of test per week you got some serious issues.

I do not mean to insult you but that´s enough roids for 2 IFBB pros.

Also the aridimex dose is really low like 50 mg´s per day - you´ll need 10 times as much to control estrogen.

My only concern with using HCG daily is desensitization. For instance,would there be a problem with desensitization to LH and consequently no endogeneous testosterone production when coming off say a 12 week cycle where you’re using 500 IU’s daily of HCG or does densensitization to LH only apply to higher doses of HCG for longer periods of time?

The desensitization issue is indeed real
for megadoses (as I consider them) of HCG,
but no evidence it’s an issue for 500 IU doses, and it certainly seems not to be.