I am still a bit confused about when to use HCG for recovery. Is it best to use after coming off a long or short cycle? Does the use of certain anabolics dictate the need for HCG? How exactly do its recovery properties differ from using clomid? Would using clomid with HCG for recovery after short (2-week) cycles have any merit? Please elaborate on this topic because it is one that continues to elude me. Thanks.
I would like to know when and how much after 8 week cycles also.
At the 6th week of the cycle I use HCG at 500 iu’s a day for two weeks,You might use it at the end of a cycle,but there is a chance for suppression…Clomid stimulates the release of LH,HCG is a LH substitute,At the end of a cycle do Clomid ED and do Primo 300mg/week for 3 weeks starting 1 week after your last shot of a long lasting ester…Primo at that dosage shouldn’t hinder the recovery of natural Test. production and will help preserve gains…VooDooChile
According to Roberts 500 iu´s per day for
the duration of the cycle is ideal but I can´t
seem to remember if one should continue this
regimen off cycle. Clomid might be useful post
cycle at the same time as HCG to block the effects of estrogen - HCG will raise est.levels
pretty dramatically-I guess Aridimex would be
the ideal choice. Clomid could or rather should
be continued after HCG use as it has an LH elevating effect without casuing downregulation
of the Ledyg cells. I really hope Roberts
will adress this issue completely.
VooDooChile´s regimen seems like a good idea.
The result would probably be faster recovery compared to not using HCG.
As far as the primo dosage, I´d like to
compare 200 mg versus 400 mg´s to see if recovery is affected.
The problem of high estrogen that
can be seen with HCG use occurs only
with the massive overdoses commonly
recommended. At 500 IU per day, or
even 1000 IU twice per day (which is
more than one needs for maintenance)
there is no such problem.
By using 500 IU/day throughout the cycle,
there is no shrinkage problem, and
therefore no real need for it after the cycle.
The old strategy of letting your nuts shrink
and then try to correct that simultaneously,
or about the same time, as letting the HPTA
recover at the end of the cycle, just isn’t
the best way to go, but you’ll see a lot
of references in the bodybuilding “literature”
to such plans.
The older method that I used to advocate,
of using higher doses for one week out
of every three weeks, is also obsolete.
The reason for the cycling was that those
doses were a little harsh, so it seemed
better to be off them most of the time,
and one week out of three was sufficient
with those doses… but it’s so much better
to use a milder, yet fully efficacious dose
all the time.
Could I use 500iu EOD to save on cost, or would that just be spinning my wheels?
so, if you’re using hcg @ 500iu/day throughout the cycle, when/how much clomid should be used?
Using 500 IU every other day is a lot better than nothing, supposing the cycle is lasting a while, but I’m surprised cost is an issue. I can’t at the moment recall what I’ve paid per 10,000 IU ampule of Profasi, but I don’t think it was much more than $30 or something. So that’s only about $1.50 per day, and switching to every other day would be a saving of only 75 cents. My balls are worth 75 cents a day to me.
As for how much Clomid to use during a cycle if using HCG, the answer really is, same as you’d be using if not using the HCG, according to whether you’re using aromatizable steroids or not and if so, how much. 50 mg/day would be typical. Or, you might want to use Clomid even if not using aromatizable steroids, due to other beneficial effects like improving blood lipid profile (which often is otherwise worsened during an androgen cycle.)
once the hcg powder is mixed, how long is it good for?
…and how should it be stored to keep it sterile?
The Profasi brand seems to say (it’s in Spanish though) that it is good for 20 days after mixing, under refrigeration.
For storage, I use an otherwise emptied multiuse vial,
transferring the HCG solution into there
after mixing. I use a different method,
but you could clean the vial with 190
proof ethanol, then rinse three times with
sterile water, adding and removing that
water with a syringe.
Just load up a few insulin syringes with 500iu and keep them in the refrigerator. After you use up 20 days worth, mix up another batch of HCG and put it in the insulin syringes again. Viola
Another quick question: Once I mix the 2 separate parts together, do I need to add anything (e.g., sterile water) to get to a volume of 1ml, or should the combined volume of the 2 parts equal 1ml? I’ve got 5000iu Profasi.
With the Profasi, you just mix the supplied water with the supplied powder, and you
have the correct mixture, which certainly
seems to be right around 1 mL.
I don’t understand really why some preparations
use as much as 10 mL for 5000 IU. It’s
certainly inconvenient to have to inject that
much water. It seems likely that you could
use just 1 mL instead and have a solution
like that of Profasi, but I can’t guarantee
that that does work for the other brands.
I hate to flog a dead horse, but there are two
things that are still not clear to me WRT HCG
use. First, there is a conflict between what
Batchelder and Brock recommend and what Bill
does. Brock & Brian recommend using HCG just after the cycle to restart testicular function, while Bill recommends using it
during the cycle to maintain testicle size
and not to use it after the cycle as it can
inhibit HPTA recovery. Could you guys clear
this up please. Thanks. Secondly, if one
is doing a 2on/4off or 2on/3off plan is HCG
even particularly useful/necessary? Thanks
Well, I don’t know what to say here about
why I recommend one thing and others
recommend another… I feel like I’ve
explained pretty clearly why I favor just
avoiding letting any problem develop
in the first place as the solution, but
if there’s any specific question I’d be
glad to answer it.
I would tend to guess,
but could be wrong, that others have
recommended post cycle use, in contrast
to continuous use throughout the cycle,
because no one had yet pointed out that
very low doses can be used effectively
in that context, e.g. 500 IU. The doses that
generally thought appropriate, like 5000 IU
(these values being used medically) are
indeed inappropriate for sustained use
throughout the cycle, and the only way
you can get away with them is brief use,
with possibility of adverse effects.
Okay, to me Bill Roberts makes perfect sense as opposed to Brock, (sorry Brock, still think you’re the man though). I really do not think Bill would state something unless he has found it to be true with the hundreds of athletes he has worked with. Ane use your heads, doesn’t it make more sense to PREVENT a problem like testicular atrophy as opposed to FIXiNG it later!! I don’t know about any of you, but my balls are one of the most important things to me, in fact I wouldn’t even use steroids unless I could use HCG for PREVENTiON!
Bill: Actually you already answered one of my
two questions. And yes, I think that your
approach does make more sense. Which is what
puzzled me: why Brock and Batchelder would
recommend something that made less sense.
Anyway, I do have one more specific question, and once I have it answered I think
I'll be all ready to start my cycle(s).
Basically it's this: I'm all ready to do
3 cycles of 2 on 3-4 off (depending on recovery time) using the following for the
two "on" weeks:
And continuing the clomid through week 3 of each cycle.
My question is: for this type of cycle is HCG even needed? It doesn't seem to me that much testicular atrophy would occur in just 2 weeks. Am I wrong? If I were doing 3-8 week cycles I would definitely use the HCG at 500IU per day while on. I don't have the HCG now, but if it would make that much differance I would track some down.
Also, BTW, I’ve learned a whole lot about AAS
since I devised my last cycle plan, and I’m
glad I waited and did the additional research - I think this will produce much better results. I attribute a lot of that learning to reading Bills’ posts and articles. I found the following articles on Mesomorphosis to be especially useful:
That latter article was particularly useful in convinving me that AR downregulation does not occur, thus alleviating some concerns about that.
Everything you need to know to do an AAS cycle properly is either on the T-mag site or Mesomorphosis. I humbly grateful for all the awesome info. Thanks.