T Nation

I Want to Start Cutting

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
I don’t want to seem like I’m yelling this over the internet like a stuck up jerk but it’s pretty much impossible to gain strength without muscle. [/quote]

Simple answer. Yes you can. Muscle size has nothing to do with muscle strength. Stop now before you hurt yourself.

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
I don’t want to seem like I’m yelling this over the internet like a stuck up jerk but it’s pretty much impossible to gain strength without muscle.

Simple answer. Yes you can. Muscle size has nothing to do with muscle strength. Stop now before you hurt yourself.
[/quote]

Muscle size does have something to do with muscle strength. You don’t significantly increase the size of a muscle without it getting any stronger.

However, strength itself is not only gained through added size because of neural adaptation or simply learning the movement and how to perform it more efficiently. The belief that size has nothing to do with strength is false. It simply isn’t the only factor that contributes to strength.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
I don’t want to seem like I’m yelling this over the internet like a stuck up jerk but it’s pretty much impossible to gain strength without muscle.

Simple answer. Yes you can. Muscle size has nothing to do with muscle strength. Stop now before you hurt yourself.

Muscle size does have something to do with muscle strength. You don’t significantly increase the size of a muscle without it getting any stronger. [/quote]

True enough, bad choice of words on my part. I was mainly refering to the presented scenario.

[quote]
However, strength itself is not only gained through added size because of neural adaptation or simply learning the movement and how to perform it more efficiently. The belief that size has nothing to do with strength is false. It simply isn’t the only factor that contributes to strength.[/quote]

Your explanation is more thorough than mine, I agree, but they ultimately make the same point in regards to this dudes imaginary scenario.

There are plenty of small, minimally muscled men who can outlift heavier muscled, larger men. In that regards the size of the muscle had nothing to with weight lifted.

My point was that just because you are getting stronger doesn’t mean you gained significant muscle mass.

I wish you would have jumped in here sooner.

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
Professor X wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
I don’t want to seem like I’m yelling this over the internet like a stuck up jerk but it’s pretty much impossible to gain strength without muscle.

Simple answer. Yes you can. Muscle size has nothing to do with muscle strength. Stop now before you hurt yourself.

Muscle size does have something to do with muscle strength. You don’t significantly increase the size of a muscle without it getting any stronger.

True enough, bad choice of words on my part. I was mainly refering to the presented scenario.

However, strength itself is not only gained through added size because of neural adaptation or simply learning the movement and how to perform it more efficiently. The belief that size has nothing to do with strength is false. It simply isn’t the only factor that contributes to strength.

Your explanation is more thorough than mine, I agree, but they ultimately make the same point in regards to this dudes imaginary scenario.

There are plenty of small, minimally muscled men who can outlift heavier muscled, larger men. In that regards the size of the muscle had nothing to with weight lifted.

My point was that just because you are getting stronger doesn’t mean you gained significant muscle mass.

I wish you would have jumped in here sooner.

[/quote]

…starting to drift off topic…

[quote]That One Guy wrote:

…starting to drift off topic…[/quote]

Then bring it on back.

[quote]That One Guy wrote:

…starting to drift off topic…[/quote]

If you’re not pleased with the fat and muscle on your frame then go ahead and cut back your calories. You’ll still be able to gain muscle even if you cut back on the amount of calories you currently consume. I would not advise you to “cut” if by cutting you mean consuming less calories than you use throughout the day. I can’t really imagine an actual reason why someone would want to cut unless they were getting ready for a contest.

If you lower your calorie consumption so that the excess calories you consume are put to gains in lean mass instead of gains in lean mass and fat mass, then you will become leaner.

ALright, for anybody that for some reason thinks its not possible to gain weight “muscle mass” and cut “lose fat” at the same time, this is for you.

When I started lifting, I weighted in at 148lbs, with a body fat percentage of roughly 12%. Today, 4 months later, I weigh in at 165 with a body fat percentage of just under 7%.

That my friend is a lose of 5% in body fat, and a very nice gain in solid muscle.

Now Im sure some of that weight gained is water weight, but I have clearly proven that you can do both at the same time.

Now, this is what I have done so far diet and lifiting wise.

In the morning, I eat 5 whole eggs with cheese, and a bunch (2-3 serving sizes) of cereal or oatmeal. Those five eggs I eat have a lot of fat in them, however, that is about the only fat I get the rest of the day. Other than some peanut butter before bed.

The rest of my diet consists of high protein and high carbs.

Lifting - I was lifting 5 days and doing a lot of lifting to induce hypertrophy.

SO just try eating right, and lifting a lot man. You can and WILL do it.

[quote]double_a wrote:
ALright, for anybody that for some reason thinks its not possible to gain weight “muscle mass” and cut “lose fat” at the same time, this is for you.

When I started lifting, I weighted in at 148lbs, with a body fat percentage of roughly 12%. Today, 4 months later, I weigh in at 165 with a body fat percentage of just under 7%.

That my friend is a lose of 5% in body fat, and a very nice gain in solid muscle.

Now Im sure some of that weight gained is water weight, but I have clearly proven that you can do both at the same time.

Now, this is what I have done so far diet and lifiting wise.

In the morning, I eat 5 whole eggs with cheese, and a bunch (2-3 serving sizes) of cereal or oatmeal. Those five eggs I eat have a lot of fat in them, however, that is about the only fat I get the rest of the day. Other than some peanut butter before bed.

The rest of my diet consists of high protein and high carbs.

Lifting - I was lifting 5 days and doing a lot of lifting to induce hypertrophy.

SO just try eating right, and lifting a lot man. You can and WILL do it.[/quote]

Yeah it is somewhat possible for a beginner. You’ve been training four months thats really not that much. Everyone goes through this when they first start its called “newbie gains”.When you’ve been lifting for several years and are no longer a newbie, once your body has gotten used to the “bodybuilding” (and I use that term loosely here) lifestyle, to try to lose fat and gain a SIGNIFCANT amount of muscle mass would be spinning your wheels.

[quote]K-Narf wrote:

Yeah it is somewhat possible for a beginner. You’ve been training four months thats really not that much. Everyone goes through this when they first start its called “newbie gains”.When you’ve been lifting for several years and are no longer a newbie, once your body has gotten used to the “bodybuilding” (and I use that term loosely here) lifestyle, to try to lose fat and gain a SIGNIFCANT amount of muscle mass would be spinning your wheels.[/quote]

Very true. Most people are going to be running in circles if they attempt to pull their body in two directions at one time. Most lifters will NOT lose tons of body fat while also gaining a signficant amount of muscle mass unless they are newbies and their bodies are still adjusting to training in the first place.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
K-Narf wrote:

Yeah it is somewhat possible for a beginner. You’ve been training four months thats really not that much. Everyone goes through this when they first start its called “newbie gains”.When you’ve been lifting for several years and are no longer a newbie, once your body has gotten used to the “bodybuilding” (and I use that term loosely here) lifestyle, to try to lose fat and gain a SIGNIFCANT amount of muscle mass would be spinning your wheels.

Very true. Most people are going to be running in circles if they attempt to pull their body in two directions at one time. Most lifters will NOT lose tons of body fat while also gaining a signficant amount of muscle mass unless they are newbies and their bodies are still adjusting to training in the first place.
[/quote]

Not to try to pull the discussion off topic, but by periodically changing movements (once strength gains dry up in a particular movement) say by switching from dumbbell presses to barbell presses (and hence adding more weight) or perhaps a person who’s been leg pressing for a while doing squats for the first time, etc…wouldn;t it be possible to prevent the body from completely adjusting to a series of movement patterns and hence build muscle even while hypocaloric. I;m not talking huge amounts of muscle, of course, but by periodizing training while hypocaloric it might be possible to build a small amount of muscle (relative to amount of fat lost) each time you switch up the exercises, even for someone who’s been lifting for a while, but is still within his genetic limits, perhaps?

Although I have only consistently lifting for the past few months, I have been reading and inconsistently lifting for about 2 years. Do to time and money, I could only lift long enough to put on a few pounds and then I would have to stop.

So I don’t want to sound prideful when I say that I know all about “newbie” gains, but I honestly do.

If Massarmor said he was lifting for the past two years and eating well (clean) for most of that time, i would not have commented. However, If you look at his before and after weights, you’ll see that he has gone through nearly the same exact thing as myself. He put on a couple more pounds than I have so far, but not enough to think he is out of his “newbie” stage.

So maybe instead of just telling you all that it’s possible, since the educated people on the forum already know that, I should have helped this guy out and told him what I have been doing.

Massarmor - I think that if you stick to those calorie amounts and ratios with consistent lifting and maybe some MILD cardio, you’ll lose the gut over time. However, as most people already stated, if you are trying to put on size, you really shouldn’t be too concerned with that right now.

Also, what kinda strength gains have you attained?

um… I wasn’t trying to start a debate about it lol But it’s very interesting. I don’t mind if you go off-topic. Though please continue with the tips too

MaloVerde - I wasn’t saying you were right or wrong, I was just stating what I’ve read the most. You’re not bugging me and I appreciate your input.

Thanks for that article link FightingScott. lol I like your story about Carl. Do you or anyone else know the answer to this question:

How do you know what the middle ground for you is between caloric surplus and a hypercaloric diet?

And if you reach that middle ground, where you have hardly any carloric surplus and no hypercaloric diet, can you gain muscle?

Is the ideal place to be?

Aragorn - Thanks. I’ll take your suggestions and eat clearner and do some cardio instead of cutting.

K-Narf - I really appreciate your advice. I’ll try to stay in a ballpark range like you said. It’s frustrating keeping track of everything I eat everyday anyway. I guess I just need to cut back a little right now. I can’t imagine eating 5000+ calories a day. Wow. How do you do that